User talk:Finell

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Contents 1 Welcome! 2 Thanks for Welcome! 3 Stub text 4 Thanks 5 Golden mean, Golden Mean, ZGolden mean 6 Nicomachean Ethics 7 Thank you, Finell! 8 Sig 9 Solar eclipse 10 Saints Wikiproject 11 history of astronomy articles 12 Golden Ratio 13 Golden Ratio in Geometry 14 Fibonacci 15 Mathematics: Canadian mass nouns 16 Lavinia Williams 17 Please Do Not Vandalize My Talk Page 18 licensing 19 Sources 20 I wrote to the President but got no reply 21 Peter Nehr page 22 Conflict of Interest 23 Die Feen 24 WP:BABEL 25 Copernicus in German Encyclopedias 26 My regard for other users and viewpoints 27 I put Benford's law of controversy up for afd 28 Spelling out of centuries on Joseph Priestley 29 Re: your email 30 MOS proposal 31 User:Pumpmeup and talkpages 32 Pumpmeup & edit summary 33 Golden emergency 34 WARNING 35 Richard Dawkins 36 Thanks re: "logical quotation" 37 Euclid 38 Luca Pacioli 39 Matila Ghyka 40 Lojack 41 Edits 42 Again, watch your comments.

[edit] Welcome!

Welcome!

Hello, Finell, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

• The five pillars of Wikipedia
• How to edit a page
• Help pages
• Tutorial
• How to write a great article
• Manual of Style

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome!  RJFJR 04:01, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for Welcome!

Dear RJFJR: Thanks for the Welcome message you left on my Talk page! I am curious how you even noticed my existence. Are you the official welcoming committee?? Thanks again. Finell 02:12, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm the officially unofficial (or vice-versa) welcome committee. Which just means that I remember appreciating it when someone left the welcome message for me so I try to do it for new wikipedians in return. Have fun! RJFJR 02:21, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Stub text

No, I didn't notice your note until you pointed it out to me. As for your other question, did you click the discussion tab when reading User:Rdsmith4/me? If not, I have no idea why that happened. It's not possible to modify the behavior of the tabs. In any case, I redirected User talk:Rdsmith4/me to my real talk page to avoid future confusion. — Dan | Talk 02:41, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Right, he was reading User:Rdsmith4/me and clicked "discussion" intending to leave me a message, but left it in the wrong place. The page is fine as a redirect. — Dan | Talk 19:22, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Thank you for your support and kind words on my RfA. Much appreciated. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 04:05, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Golden mean, Golden Mean, ZGolden mean

What exactly were you trying to do with these moves/redirects? It seems to me that all you really needed to do was edit the original version of "Golden mean" and change the redirect to point to Golden Mean. Am I missing something? Owen× ☎ 12:41, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nicomachean Ethics

Thanks for your help with the introduction--it looks much better now. I made sure the article was accurate, but the writing style isn't always very good. Some of the other paragraphs could probably use some help too. I would like to link to golden mean from NicEth, but I'll wait until it gets sorted out a little. WhiteC 15:06, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you, Finell!

Thank you for your support on my RfA, and for the very kind words. Both are sincerely appreciated. Look forward to collaborate further with you. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 14:54, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sig

Here, Shell <e> 02:06, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Solar eclipse

Uh, why did you comment out the entire latter part of the article? [1] -- Curps 05:17, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Would an Admin PLEASE help me? I am NOT a vandal. I did not mean to comment out ANY part of the text of Solar eclipse. In the course of copyediting 1 section of Solar eclipse, I added 3 words in capital letters at the end of a comment that someone else had already inserted, agreeing with that comment. Did I inadvertently overwrite the end of comment tag that was already there?

When I saved my edit and saw what happened to the article, I immediately tried to revert my own edit, but I was alrady BLOCKED. I tried to respond on Admin Curps's Talk page, but I couldn't because I'm BLOCKED. When I tried to email Admin Curps as the User is blocked" page suggested, I couldn't: I got an error message saying that I can't email either because I am not logged in (but I was) or because I don't have a valid email address in my preferences (but I do).

I am aware that this featured article has been plagued with vandalism. But PLEASE look at my whole edit history on Solar eclipse. PLEASE look at my 2 signed comments toward the end of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Solar_eclipse#All_messed_up . PLEASE look at my whole edit history on Wikipedia. PLEASE post my response on User_talk:Curps or email it to him.

My IP address 75.6.227.164 is also blocked.

Thanks. Finell (Talk) 07:04, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Looks like the blocker realised this was a genuine mistake very quickly (see the block log [2]). However I guess the auto blocker has caught you, I'll undo those. --pgk^(talk) 09:50, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if I missed any autoblocks, I think I checked for them and didn't find any. It's not clear why you weren't able to send e-mail, my e-mail is working fine and I receive e-mails daily. However, your edit did more than just add capital letters at the end of an HTML comment, you also added an HTML end comment string at the very end of the article (after the +zh interwiki link, and far away from the site of those capital letters) [3]. So despite what you said above, it really seems like you did intend to comment out the entire latter part of the article... probably you were experimenting and inadvertently saved that experiment to the actual page instead of the Wikipedia:Sandbox. Unfortunately, Solar eclipse was prominently linked from the main page, as a recent featured article, and we've had a lot of vandalism to such prominently featured articles lately, so it was a bit trigger-happy, but I did unblock the account name a minute later. Perhaps there really ought to be an option to unblock autoblocks at the same time that a username is unblocked. -- Curps 01:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Saints Wikiproject

I noted that you have been contributing to articles about saints. I invite you to join the WikiProject Saints. You can sign up on the page and add the following userbox to your user page.

Thanks! --evrik 19:27, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] history of astronomy articles

Finell, I am pleased to see your recent enthusiast contributions to astronomical history articles. One request: could you be less aggressive in editing, and try keep the number of edit sessions limited? I now see >10 changes a day in one article, it is hard to keep up reviewing them. Tom Peters 13:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Finell, I gave you the wrong answer on the meaning of VAT in reference to clay tablets: it is an abbreviation for Vorder-Asiatische Tontafelsammlung, and they are (or used to be) kept in Berlin musea, not in the Vatican. Tom Peters 22:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Golden Ratio

Thanks for the compliment you posted on my Talk page regarding the Golden Ratio graphic, I wrote a short reply to it there. Good luck on the article. -Eisnel 20:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Golden Ratio in Geometry

Steven, I am not sure what you are asking about. Last I checked I could not detect any material that I added to the Golden Ratio page. Do you know where the link has gone? I am pretty sure there was one to one of the pages at my site, with all the proofs and relevant sources for a follow-up. Did you find any wrong with this arrangement? -Alexb@cut-the-knot.com 21:19, 3 October 2006 (EST)

Steven, sorry. Absolutely forgot about what I did. The piece about the 4:3 ratio appeared in one of Keith Devlin's columns at the MAA site a few years back. If need be I can find it. As to the potential of the wide screen, this is of course a speculation, but a reasonable one, in view of the mystical aesthetic value ascribed to the Golden Ratio. There is a nice link to a misconceptions page. -Alexb@cut-the-knot.com 21:41, 3 October 2006 (EST)

[edit] Fibonacci

Eh? Minor? To be frank, I didn't even known you can mark moves as minor. I must have thought I was marking the target for deletion! Dunno how that happened. - CrazyRussian talk/email 16:23, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, er, thanks for the heads up. I am totally aware of minor edits. I just didn't know that MOVES could be marked minor. As an admin I do in fact know uh... a lot.

As to your main point, I corrected all the double-redirects, and no, I don't think it's a good idea to bypass all redirects. Some redirects, yes, definitely not all. For example, the article for "3" should continue stating that it's a Fibonacci number. I think that's quite fine. There's no policy here that all redirects should be bypassed. - CrazyRussian talk/email 17:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mathematics: Canadian mass nouns

Do you mean "mass nouns" or "math nouns"? Till 15 September the text was still The word "mathematics" is often abbreviated math in the U.S. and Canada and maths in Britain, Ireland, Australia and many other Commonwealth countries.[4] Then it was changed to North America, after some discussion, now in the archives. If one defines the Google hit operator Gh by Gh[X] = the number of Google hits for search term "X", and the maths ratio for site S by mr_S = Gh[maths site:S]/Gh[mathematics site:S], we find experimentally that mr_.uk ≈ 0.95, whilst mr_.ca ≈ 0.07, supporting the theory of Canadian neighbourly conformance. I'm somewhat reluctant to transform this insight into a contribution to our article Canadian English (North American English confines itself to the U.S.), as it is based on original research. The article seems to take the position anyway that by default the lexicon for Canadian English is the same as for American English, as it mainly documents the differences between these two.  --Lambiam^Talk 20:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lavinia Williams

Finell, thanks for your kind comment regarding Lavinia Williams. Sorry I haven't been around much to reply. You suggested I list the additional citations I found (and mentioned on the article's talk page) under "References" in the article itself. The only thing is, I have no idea if they are real, trustworthy, or accurately transcribed. The citations on the talk page (as opposed to the ones in the articles) are citations I have seen references to online, but where I have not actually seen or heard the books, videos, or audiotapes myself, and could not even find them listed in library catalogs that I checked. I mentioned them on the talk page to give people who wanted to work on the article ideas for places to look, but I didn't want to just blindly propagate them into the article before someone checked up on them. EsdnePyaJ 04:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please Do Not Vandalize My Talk Page

Adding your information to my talk page is not appropriate. A word is not inherently a personal attack, and using the "dick rule" is quite appropriate. If you have a complaint about it, find the talk page there, and do not edit my page because you disagree with something that is tossed around by many editors and admin as a good rule of thumb. SanchiTachi 04:36, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Dear SanchiTachi:

The views expressed in your item "The Following Words are Not Personal Attack Terms" are misleading and are a dangerous endorsement of personal attacks and incivility, particularly to individuals who are new to the Wikipedia community. Do you really contend that if someone wrote on Wikipedia that you are a dick or a bully, or that you behave like one, that would not constitute a personal attack? Therefore, I added corrective information that is documented by the Wikipedia official policy statements that were linked in what I added.

Furthermore, you should take to heart the comments of other Wikipedians who have expressed the view that some of your conduct has been uncivil or has constituted personal attacks, and consider that they may not all be mistaken. At least, consider whether your contributions to Wikipedia would be more effective and more readily accepted it you stopped engaging in conduct that several other Wikipedians view as disruptive. Also, you may find greater satisfaction in your participation here if your conduct is not the object of this sort of criticism. I am not suggesting that you avoid controversy, but rather that you advocate your position on controversial issues more effectively.

As for the immediate issue of your item "The Following Words are Not Personal Attack Terms", I suggest that you do one of the following: (1) Delete the item; or (2) Restore my response in the interest of balance. Of these, I believe that the first one would be best.

Regarding your accusation that my addition was vandalism, please review Wikipedia:Vandalism and you will see that it is not: I did not change or delete what you wrote. If, after reviewing that statement of official policy, you still contend that my addition was vandalism, please either invoke Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism or commence formal dispute resolution, so the issue can be resolved authoritatively.

Finell (Talk) 05:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Disrupting user pages is vandalism. You had no purpose there except to try and be argumentative, which goes against Wiki policy. Any further responses by you or changes to my user page or talk page from you will result in me sending your name up for review. You had no reason to be there, nor any purpose except to be disruptive. SanchiTachi 05:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Dear SanchiTachi:

Please do "[send my] name up for review", as you offered to do on my Talk page. That is precisely what my last comment proposed that you do. Also, it is not appropriate for you to delete (i.e., censor) the comment I left on your Talk page, especially since my comment was a direct response to the message that you posted on my Talk page. Finell (Talk) 06:05, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] licensing

There's nothing wrong with his multilicensing under GFDL and PD. I just spent like....3 hours looking into it.⇒ SWATJester ^{Denny Crane.} 13:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Please note that primary sources are perfectly acceptable sources on WP and your insistance of adding {{unreferenced}} to an article which cites its sources is quite surprising. If you are unfamiliar with the subject matter and find it unbelievable, you would do much better reading up on the matter. Here you have the following sources to the subject matter with *published* English translations, including commentaries:

• Read the Volsunga Saga Here, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson.
• Timeless Myths: Volsunga Saga
• The Story of Sigurd. The Volsunga Saga retold by Andrew Lang.
• Modern English translation of Beowulf by Francis Barton Gummere
• Modern English translation of Beowulf by John Lesslie Hall
• translation of Nibelungenlied by Daniel B. Shumway
• Drap Niflunga in translation by Bellows.

You would do much better adding these external links to the article than to engage in an edit war insisting on pretending that the article does not cite its sources.--Berig 17:16, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

You say that I began by reverting you, whereas the hisory says that the first revert was yours. If you are unable to spot four (4) sources in the first two paragraphs, and the table {{volsung}} on the right side of the table which mentions four sources, there is nothing I can do.--Berig 04:56, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

You have to understand that it says nowhere on WP:CITE that naming the primary sources is not citing. If this question is so important to you, why do you insist on plastering tags, instead of adapting the sourcing to *your own* preferences?--Berig 08:38, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I wrote to the President but got no reply

Finell

Thanks for your message on my talk page. Attempts to contact the secretary of Bertie's Cabal and clarify the rules for membership have thus far proved fruitless.

I think I wrote the piece as I had intended, but accept it may have been more amusing if reworded. I did, however, your point of view until I was worried that my head might asplode and then decided to go bowling instead.

Paul Tracy_|\talk 22:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Peter Nehr page

Peter Nehr is a subject of interest. Reasons being that he is only Austrian-American natualized citizen that I know of that has made it to the Florida State Legislature that I have been able to find in my research. Thus, that makes him a first in his category. He is now a freshman with sponsored bill which have passed which makes him of significance in any state since he is now within state history regardless of scale of importance. I thank you for taking time to review and appreciate the scope of your position in trying to keep the range and scope of Wikipedia down. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anitanehr (talk • contribs)

[edit] Conflict of Interest

re:Anita, I see no indication that you have been locked out of Wikipedia. Your user name is Anitanehr and your account is not blocked. What do you mean that you are locked out? On the other hand, what do you mean by gaining "exclusive access"? No one has exclusive access to Wikipedia articles; everyone has equal access. Also, the fact that you are the subject's wife and were "assigned to establish the Wikipedia listing for [your] husband" suggests the potential for violating the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest policy. Finell (Talk) 07:27, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Continuing this discussion please, Finell, It was my mistake on being "locked out"...please forgive, I am new and I was not locked out. Now as to conflict of interest. I could see how my writing style could be construed as biased and changed it to strictly factual and will be providing all backup within the next 2 weeks so that my article is referenced as in my Graduate and my PhD papers were and will be. Will this alleviate any problems for you where conflict of interst are concerned? Doctoral theses have been written on some cases where no distance exists in some areas of science and yet fact can be maintained in the writing. Being close to him, I know his background better than someone else and have access to factual documents such as birth records, naturalization papers, etc that someone outside would not. I also read German fluently which allows me to read old data from before he came to this country should I ever need to add any prior historical information later as his career progresses which the Party asserts to me will happen. I will await your answer. Thank you in being so kind and patient with me. AnitanehrAnita

[edit] Die Feen

Hi Steven, Now that Die Feen contains a synopsis and some critical opinions, I think it is not too far off being suitable for candidacy as a good article. As a preliminary, I'm trying to sort out the referencing. I noticed you added a reference to the booklet from the Sawallisch set. I wonder whether you can help me on who wrote the notes and what pages they are in the booklet? Contentwise, does it indicate whether the recording was made in 1982, as the article previously stated) or 1983 which would fit better with the centenary celebrations? I also wonder if it is a source for the history of the manuscript (ie. its being given to Ludwig and then to Hitler and then being lost) or the lack of braodcasting. Thanks. --Peter cohen 11:49, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Dear Peter: Where do you see that I added any reference to this article? I just checked my 3 edits, and they do not include adding a reference (I did add a tag to indicate that more secondary references were needed, but it was promptly removed).

I see that you added a lot of content to the article. However, before nominating the article as a WP:GA, I suggest more careful copy editing (just quickly glancing at the article, I saw that the very first sentence lacks a period, and I spotted two words that were run together), adding many more wikilinks, and conforming the capitalization in the headings to the WP:MOS. Also, I suggest moving the list of recordings to the "Performance and Recording History" section, adding more inline references (especially where a statement is attributed to others, such as "Although the music of Die Feen shows the influences of Weber and other composers of the time, commentators have recognised embryonic features of the mature Wagnerian opera."), and removing all the redlinks from the premier cast (no reason to believe that they each warrant a Wikipedia article). Also, many of the Notes and Sources need to be conformed to proper bibliographic citation style; I suggest using citation templates, because they promote consistent style and completeness. Good luck! Finell (Talk) 18:20, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Steven, thanks for your reply. It is in the following edit [5] that you added the reference at the bottom.

I've done much of what you suggested above. The WP:WPO recommended style is to have a discography at the bottom and a performance history warly on. I'll have a think how best to split the performance and recording material. The Sources section has a query against it, anyway from our trial assessments, and is likely to be replaced by further reading and external links sections. As for, the inline citations, my initial contact with you was to do with finding what was said in which sources. Who the commentators are in the lead mentioned in the lead is explained in the article (specifically) in the The music section. I intend to check which of the performers at the premiere are important. at WP:Wagner we are compiling a list of singers who need articles. Thanks again for your comments and good wishes.--Peter cohen 23:49, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:BABEL

Perhaps you'd consider using those language userboxes, so other editors can easily know which languages you are proficient in?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  05:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copernicus in German Encyclopedias

Okay, I looked it up in the Brockhaus Enzyklopädie and in a text from the Allgemeine Deutsche Biographie. His nationality isn't mentioned in my edition of the Brockhaus Encyclopedia, but the text from the ADB [6] has one paragraph devoted to this question. Should I translate it?
In der Wissenschaft ist er ein Mann, der nicht einer Nation angehört means For/In science he is a man who has neither/no nationality. It also says that his nationality couldn't be determined clearly and has been a matter of dispute.
I could also cite the german wikipedia (leading and modern), but this won't count, would it? I hope I could help. --Versusray 13:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Versusray: Cite rather the "Neue Deutsche Biographie", this is the continuation of "Allgemeine Deutsche Biographie". The last "Allgemeine Deutsche Biographie" edition seems to be from 1912. And rather take the newest edition of "Neue Deutsche Biographie" not those from 1953. The older edition can likely disrespect the neutral point of view; most probably because it is the Polish heritage case - which need to be minimized, is not it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.104.219.176 (talk) 19:04, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's from 1912, that's why it's public domain and in wikisource. That was all I could find. I don't know if the newer edition is more 'neutral', because this old one already states that Copernicus had neither nationality. I'd already call this neutral. You can also look at the original entry, but I guess this won't help you. --Versusray 19:36, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My regard for other users and viewpoints

You mentioned in the talk page of the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon article that you saw evidence of my lack of regard for other users and their viewpoints on my user talk page. In good faith, I re-read the content on my talk page, and I didn't see any evidence of a lack of regard for other users or viewpoints, unless your definition of "lack of regard" somehow includes "disagreement". At any rate, I found the personal attack offensive. Rray 19:59, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I apologize for offending you, but please distinguish between comments about editing behavior and personal attacks. Was your edit comment a personal attack on me? I did not take it as such. On the other hand, your manner of editing and commenting does tend toward the abrasive, rather than the collaborative. Finell (Talk) 21:10, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I disagree about being abrasive rather than collaborative, but that's cool too. Thanks for taking the time to reply though, and have a good weekend. Rray 22:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I put Benford's law of controversy up for afd

regards,Rich 03:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling out of centuries on Joseph Priestley

I appreciate your desire to adhere to the letter of the law of the MOS, but it is only a guideline. Because featured articles try to attain a professional standard of writing, it is important when getting an article ready for that venue to keep that standard in mind. Professional style guides such as the Chicago Manual of Style dictate that centuries should be spelled out. Academic presses spell out their centuries as well. I'm not going to revert this change again, but I would appreciate it if you would consider the explanation left in the edit summary and the discussion on the article's talk page before reverting. Thanks. Awadewit | talk 19:09, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I did conider your edit summaries. I am aware of the other style guides, which are not unanimous on this point. There are some MOS standards that I never use elsewhere (periods and commas immediately after a close quotation marks make me cringe). However, Wikipedia should aspire to adhere to the MOS, especially in FAs. Furthermore, in this case ordinal numerals are more legible than the spelled out words. Thanks for not re-reverting 2 other editors who are trying to help. Finell (Talk) 19:27, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

This is one of those guidelines that makes me cringe, so you can probably understand how it is to read through the article and see those bristly little numbers everywhere. Everyone has their pet peeves. The article is just about ready for FAC. I'm still awaiting a few replies from the peer review and Roger Davies is going to change it all to British English. Awadewit | talk 19:33, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

No, I didn't think your edit comment was poorly written! It was interesting enough to make me look at the change. I just quoted it as (what I think of as) wordplay... –Outriggr § 23:05, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and since I'm here, Awadewit has converted me to spelled-out centuries, at least in articles about history. (But then I know someone will convert 'em, so then I forget about it.) I agree that it looks more professional. Especially when they are used in adjectival form—a hyphen is always less jarring when it does not join a numeric construction ("18th-century" versus "eighteenth-century"; "4-speed" vs. "four-speed"). –Outriggr § 23:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: your email

Hey, sorry, that simply slipped through the net -- if I don't respond when I first get the new messages bar I tend to forget about it. Anyway I responded on my talk page. Cheers, Christopher Parham (talk) 05:11, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MOS proposal

Thanks for your comment, but it does seem to be tangential to the question: do you support the idea that MOS central takes precedence by default, thus encouraging debate on the talk pages of both MOS and the relevant sub-page to resolve inconsistencies (soon after they're identified, we hope)? Tony (talk) 09:19, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

My vote was "Support, but ...", which I followed with the reasons for my support and some reservations. My last comment was a reply to User:SandyGeorgia, who remarked on one of my reservations. Finell (Talk) 02:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] User:Pumpmeup and talkpages

Just FYI - he is entitled to delete or archive the information on his userpage, including inactive block/unblock notices and warnings. Avruch ^T 15:02, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention the fact it was actually archived, I never delete threads that aren't just vandalism/spam. Please see User talk:Pumpmeup/Archive 4 - I just forgot to update the archive box on the main talk page. Even so you have absolutely no right to restore removed comments, accuse me of lying and ignore policy on the spot ("you should be reminded of your misconduct until you learn from you mistake"). Your edit summaries show blatant ignorism of the appropriate user talk page policy alongside quite severe incivility. Not too mention the incident didn't concern you in the first place and you are not aware of any of the further details. I notice you've had problems with incivility and such in related incidents in the past - which may have contributed to you being blocked. Try and stay out of incidents that don't concern you in future, or at least remain civil and do a bit of policy reading. --Pumpmeup 18:26, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Dear Pump: Your repeated vandalism of Joseph Priestley certainly did concern me, because I invested effort working on that FA (though not nearly as much as the article's main contributors). So when that FA hit the Main Page, I was one of several editors monitoring it for the usual juvenile vandalism by anon users. I was surprised to see repeated vandalism of that article by a logged in Wikipedian, and then shocked to find that the vandal was an established Wikipedian with several well deserved commendations for your service to Wikipedia. When I saw nothing about this vandalism on your Talk page, I looked at the page history and saw that you deleted the posts about your being blocked for vandalism and also about your failed RfA. Your edit summary on these deletions said that you "archived" the discussions, but they were not in the archives linked from your Talk page (I was not aware that you put them in a hidden archive, but that is essentially the same as simply deleting them). Further, removing Talk page comments about your conduct that you don't like to an archive is not archiving in the way that term is used on Wikipedia; these were posts made the same day on an otherwise empty Talk page. Subsequently, you simply deleted my post on your Talk page without archiving it, and you did the same to a post by Admin Rifleman 82, in which he told you that your post on my Talk page was uncivil and that he was questioning his decision to unblock you.

Given your recent block for vandalism, the comments that Admins and other experienced Wikipedians have made about your conduct, the closing of your recent RfA with not a single supporting vote, and the removal of your rollback privilege for misuse, you would be wise to consider your own conduct rather than attacking others. Your edit summary on my Talk page is disgraceful. Finell (Talk) 02:17, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Allow me to reiterate that you, Pumpmeup and anyone else is entitled to remove warnings, notices and criticism (and anything else) from their talkpage. The purpose of the talkpage is to communicate with the user - if you leave a warning, and its removed, you can assume that the user read it. I'm not endorsing vandalism or anything else for which either of you have previously been blocked. Simple fact is, he can remove what he wants, and telling him otherwise is not constructive to solving a problem. Avruch ^T 02:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll respond to your comment on my talkpage. Avruch ^T 03:42, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

There was no "hidden" archive. It was just the same as all the others - the box just wasn't updated on the main talk page. Seriously, realize that I have, and always will read other's comments before archiving/removing them (in cases where threads provide no meaningful/useful conversation). All revisions/discussions are available in the page's history. Pumpmeup 06:43, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pumpmeup & edit summary

Hi there

Just a note to tell you I've responded at at my talk. --Rifleman 82 (talk) 04:51, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Golden emergency

I'm trying to create a category to list all the works that were designed with golden proportions or at least been studied because of it's coinciding properties in diverse publications (say, like Stone Henge or the Arc of Noah)... but I can't figure out the right name for such category. I'll also bee needing at least some peer review of the experts. --20-dude (talk) 11:58, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

"(...)omits from its list of resources many of the authoritative sources cited in the Golden ratio article itself." I'm just starting. Howcome every single editor expects every article to be finished already when it is just starting? I'm starting the list from scratch. First placing the books written by the historical researchers, then the academic and scientific researchers from universities and scientific organizatons, then other authors, then internet pages from academic/scientific, and finally regular sourced useful amateur internet pages... If you want you would be more than welcomed to put those sources you mention in the project. Because of your next comment there is still a lot left for me to do:

Also, as the Golden ratio article shows, a lot of nonsense has been written about the golden ratio, and not everything written on the topic is by a reliable source. Yes I'm plenty aware. I could use some more of your advising here. I was thinking on maybe dividing the list in:

• works that have clear golden proportion and have been studied in diverse quotable publications (like stonehenge, the pyramids or the music of Beethoven)
• works designed with golden proportion (the parthenon, da vinci's work, le corbusier's work, etc.)

But that would left some other works like the Gothic cathedrals right in the middle. They have unknown authors but the geometrical coincidence is even more detailed than the parthenon.

What are your thoughts? By the way, even if you're an opposer you should be involved.--20-dude (talk) 02:10, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Nice going with the list! I like a lot the changes you made.--20-dude (talk) 02:13, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I meant opposer to the WikiProject (since you didn't seem to like it too much), but that was a poor choice of words on my part, anyway. I know you're a great contributor to the golden ratio articles and that's why I came to you. Reinassance is a toughie, but you're right, that's really embarrasing. hahaha. It shouldn't happen.--20-dude (talk) 02:49, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I didn't mean any disrespect to the work done and its researchers. The sources there will be eventually placed, but I'm sure even you agree that's the kind of work that can be ready from the beginning. It was my initiative to include a list of sources that can be researched for the related articles, nobody told me to do so and is not that common to see that sort of lists in a Wikiproject.--20-dude (talk) 02:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Your reply is in my talk page: --20-dude (talk) 04:55, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WARNING

You gave me constructive criticism, I'll do the same for you:

• a. What makes you talk with such tone? it kinda sounds like authoritarian arrogance. Nobody likes that either. I suggest you relax, be careful and take it easy. We're supposed to be a community, never forget that.
• b. I looked for help, especially in those who oppose my view, and results speak for themselves. It worked.
• c. If you think, mathematics is indispensable for applying golden proportion in aesthetics; you need to learn beyond that. As long as it is man made (or even nature made) it will NEVER get be phi. Divine proportion is, as its name indicates, an ideal of perfection. It is weird to you I know, but art approaches phi like that: A perfect square, a string, a nail, marker and perhaps a hammer is all an artist needs to IMITATE phi. The best approach to GR is the Parthenon: it features the proportion in the global dimensions, in the inner spaces, and in the thickness of the structure.
• d. I'm fine with Dicklyon, my appreciation of his work and perspective is real.
• e. Your comments are more than welcomed and your sort of constructive criticism is fine, but never forget, it's very easy to speak when you don't create.
• f. Wikipedia is all about having articles that are not necesarely complete, but are pushed to appear so. I explained from the beginning I was trying to make a "page under construction", in which tags could indicate so. I the end, I gave up and continue to develop the article with your systems.
• g. Check the editorial houses and the curriculum of my sources. You come from the math angle; most of my quotes are from historians, architects and designers (and then again, even some engineers).
• h. You can't blame me about the images as if it were a crime. Actually, according to me, I was giving the author even more credit by not modifying to much the context of the images. And I'm not sure you're even right on that one. What's a fourth of a page compared to a full screenshot, which are so welcomed in WP articles there is a copyright tag for them.
• i. I don't mind that much, but you come off as rude and have your own flaws. You are also always the first to point fingers. I'm just chatty, and sort of opinionated, nobody is disrupting, not even rude. The evolution of the article speaks for itself, it's not mine or dicklyon's, is the best of both.
• j. C'mon, the Bangkok thing was priceless. It's moronic, but it has a honest mistake, I kept reading a column as if it were an internet page, haha.
• k. everybody can make warnings. Please, keep them for when it's worth.
• l. I was planning on keep going until I finish the alphabet, but when I actually contemplated repeating the same comments with different letter I decided to give it a rest.
• m. Take care. Bye, now.

--20-dude (talk) 07:30, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I answered at User talk:20-dude#Warning, where this conversation began. Finell (Talk) 17:45, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Please, stop copying what I post on your page in my page. It is not a big deal if I sign up and I axidentally wasn't logged in. I was doing edits from another site. It is not like you have to mind anyway. Same with my warning. That's right my warning is ok yours not. You have to avoid blank reverting and when you see somebody doing so you HAVE to warn him before. I hate wasting my time like this but:

.618=.382+.236=(.618)²+(.618)³ ...so, you can eat your words. 

Specifically the word nonsense. Somebody else might consider that an attack on your part, but I'll assume there is good faith somewhere. Read your comments again, they were uncalled for and very unpleasent.

When Dick blanked my edits twice, back then the article was mostly a list with the books that talk about them as related to golden ratio. He erased the Parthenon 4 Gosh sake! The whole thing is inscribed in a freaking golden prism! You're attacking the editor and not the ploblem (against WP: guidelines, btw)Results speak for themselves, with the exception of the arks (wich I respected when Dick took them off) I have proven that every item was right. You should have observed the items were a very specific selection from the beginning. I could defenitely suport your concern I were placing just any monument like an idiot, say the Statue of Liberty, the Eiffel Tower or the Great Wall, ut there is no justification for taking off such trascendental work as the gothic cathedrals. To finish soon: the damn parthenon paragraphs were actually (and rightfuly) long time part of the Golden ratio article and he took it of!!! PHIdias for gosh sake!!

I tired of this, please let's move on. There's still too much to do. --20-dude (talk) 21:21, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Not recently. When I'm editing from another computer and I feel to lazy to sing in, you can tell it is me by my familiar way of addresing the editors that always implies that I know them and it is me. And if ask later I always confirm. Sometimes I even change the signature myself (I also always sign)--20-dude (talk) 23:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Richard Dawkins

Hello Finell. Thank you for your contributions to the article Richard Dawkins. Regards, Masterpiece2000 (talk) 04:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

You're very welcome. I just commented on the article's talk page. Finell (Talk) 04:53, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks re: "logical quotation"

Thanks for your edit at WP:MoS, Steven. That's the first time someone has gotten it exactly right, I think. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 17:34, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Euclid

Dear Finell I was wondering what your objection to changing the nationality of Euclid is. As it is known, Euclid was probably born in Alexandria. He taught and died in it. No one can confirm that he is purely Greek while what is more confirmed is that most of his life was spent in Egypt. He is even called "Euclid of Alexandria". In the hellinic period the Egyptian and Greek civilizations were strongly mixed with each other and each of them influenced the other. Euclid and many other scientists of Alexandria in the Byzantine age are results of that mix. So it is fair to claim both nationalities for them. So I do not understand why this insistence on claiming a doubtful piece of information (i.e. that he is purely Greek) while refusing something that might have greater evidence? Please note that I am saying he is a Greek/Egyptian and I am not claiming that he is only Egyptian. I linked the NAHSTE website in external links. If you did some search in the internet you would find many evidences that support my claim. Best wishes, Ahmedettaf April 5 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahmedettaf (talk • contribs) 15:57, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Correction to my last message: I meant the two civilizations (Egyptian and Greek) were strongly interacting with each other during the Ptolemaic empire and not the Byzantine age. Sorry about that Ahmedettaf (talk) 16:36, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Luca Pacioli

Please don't remove cited information, it is considered vandalism. Chessy999 (talk) 11:11, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I changed because it's the standard here. Ciao and good work!! --Attilios (talk) 08:34, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Matila Ghyka

I did not add any new information. My change was just a correction from Minister to Plenipotentiary Minister (which is the correct title for diplomatic envoys (see Diplomatic rank). Ministers without any other specification can be anything but diplomatic staff. I also added a reference to justify the rest of the information included in the article. I am willing to comply to your request if you are so kind and explain what I did wrong.Afil (talk) 15:31, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I will make the corrections accordingly. Actually the entire book is about Matila Ghyka.Afil (talk) 17:13, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lojack

Please see my opinion on removing that content here. Nothing personal, I just don't think that content of articles should be held in ransom when it happens to be in accordance with wikipedia policies. (it was libel or it had unreliable sources, it would be different, but this is not the case) --Enric Naval (talk) 21:26, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your help with the LoJack issue. I am not going to push this any further, delete or modify the content just because I think that it should not be there. Wikipedia is a community site and people on it can use it and do what they want with it. I am surprised at the social ethics of some of your contributors, it seems to be a lot more ego then common sense. The people that feel that everything should be out there should be careful for what they wish for because when they realize why some things shouldn't be so available, it will be too late. This really is not a big deal, it is already out there anyway, Wikipedia just makes it easier to find. Please respond in my talk page if you need to reach me.Summitrt (talk) 02:59, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edits

Why do you keep editing articles that are barely within your field of knowledge? the problem is also that your edita are too strong compared to your researching. Since unlike Dicklyon, you never increase sourcing or information, I can't avoid having this perception. Read the source, not the entire thing but specifically the chapter, section or paragraph that contextualizes the wikipedia statement that you're modifiying. This is too focus on your actions, but that's why you always get the content wrong.

To ilustrate my point, your edits the extreme oposite (meaning as bad) of what you consider mine to be: I my writing often need polishing but the information always prove right, stay and evolves into something even better (save for the biblical arcs); while your polishing lacks aproximation to the sources and end up twisting words to the point that the connection to what the source says stops existing.

Also, there was an ongoing discussion about the use of "he calls", the resolution was that there is no need to use such controversial afirmation when there are milloin of ways of expressing the same thing without affirmating something we can't prove: we don't have a sourse stating who coined the term, in consecuence we can't the coining to anyone and twisting word's in the article is not helping either.

Please, as a personal favor, think of you're answser, twice. Because I barely control my temper, an although its all my problem and fault, it's never a good idea to trigger it.

A sugestion, ask when you don't understand something I write, don't claim it is wrong. Read yourself in the talk pages (as I often do my writting). All your claims were proven wrong or just partially right. The articles remains in escense the same, which is all I care for (I'm not tight with the words I write at all, but with the statements and points they make).--20-dude (talk) 23:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Dear Dude: Please tell me exactly which edits you are referring to. You can link the diffs in you reply. Also, if you tried to be more "tight with the words [you] write", what you write would require less editing and clean-up to bring it up to Wikipedia's standards, and there would be less opportunity for others to make mistakes when they edit you. Also, please consider the use of a spell-checker. The spelling in what you write in article space are an embarrassment to Wikipedia, which is why Dicklyon and I refer not merely to editing your writing to improve it, but having "to clean up after you".

It is not a good idea for you to compare Dicklyon and me, or one editor to another in general. We each have our strengths and weaknesses. Dicklyon is a much stronger mathematician than I am; I doubt that you are making the same claim. He has fixed occasional mathematical mistakes that I have made, and I have tweaked some of his writing. But he and I get along reasonably well, and neither of us has had anything near the kinds of problems with one another that we each have had with you. I do not believe that he has ever given me a civility warning, for example, as he has given you. Also, my contributions to Wikipedia include sourced contributions and adding sources to existing material. However, when I copy edit to try to improve writing quality and clarity (something that you admit that you are not careful with), I am not looking for additional sources to cite.

Congratulations on managing your anger. That is a very important personal skill. You should be careful how you raise that subject with others, however. Some people might interpret the following statement of yours as a threat, especially the last part that I put in italic: "Please, as a personal favor, think of you're [sic: your] answser [sic: answer], twice. Because I barely control my temper, an [sic: and] although its [sic: it's] all my problem and fault, it's never a good idea to trigger it." That sounds startlingly close to what wife and child abusers say to terrorize and control their victims. I am sure that you did not mean it that way.

Learning to listen to what others say about oneself, and to try to take criticism in constructively, rather than being reactive and counterattacking (to what may not have been intended as an attack in the first place), is another important personal skill.

Have a nice weekend. Finell (Talk) 04:30, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can tell from your edit histories, the Dude seems to be blaming Finell for my recent edits. Go figger. Dicklyon (talk) 05:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

No, I checked.--20-dude (talk) 23:58, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Again, watch your comments.

Consider this a warning. "It is an embarrassment". Is not acceptable as a description, its mean, offensive and raises suspicion of bad faith on your part (because it's too subjective). I demand your apologies.

And no, it's not an embarrassment, it is a stub. You don't like it, go fight the use of stubs at the policy pages, I don't care. Since the only good source in Google books is not good enough for me. I left it there, as a stub, to see if an expert comes along.

It is also not "my child". Quit going through my contributions, you're embarrassing yourself and if I were another person I could do the same to you, but that wouldn’t be civil (in a broader conception of the term). You always forget to ask before making strong statements and weak warnings, because I would have told you to erase it for all I care.

Please don’t reply. You can do as you please with the stub you have my “permission”. It’ll be fun to see what can you do as a researcher (I’m not stating any perception of you here, just to be clear). Again, please do not reply, I won’t care to read it. --20-dude (talk) 23:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)