User talk:Faustian

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Contents 1 Welcome 2 Kiev Offensive 3 Vandalism 4 3RR 5 Allow me 6 Massacres of Poles in Volhynia 7 Предлагаю мировую 8 Petliura and elections, revisited 9 History of Christianity in Ukraine 10 Numbers 11 Happy New Year! 12 Rusyns 13 Христосъ Воскресе! 14 Russophiles 15 Russians in Ukraine 16 Wiktor Poliszczuk 17 Thank you, Kuban Kazak 18 Recent edits to Russian language in Ukraine. 19 RFC/USER Russianname 20 Treaty of Warsaw (1920) 21 "the most powerful medieval monarch" 22 K uban 23 32 hours 24 Cossacks 25 Talk:Rorschach inkblot test 26 Would you like to participate 27 Massacres in Volhynia 28 Award 29 Ukrainians in Kuban 30 Dmowski 3RR 31 My mistake 32 Rorschach Issue 33 Roman Dmowski 34 Thanks 35 You are right, but why did you revert?? 36 Bandurist 37 question 38 Linking to images 39 Unsolicited answer 40 UPA Nazi collaboration 41 Ukrainian Insurgent Army Arbitration 42 Vasyl Kuk 43 Barnstar (history) 43.1 Comment 44 Inkblot disclaimer 45 Zaporozhets za Dunayem 45.1 Danube Cossack Host 46 Vandalism 47 On a totally unrelated note 48 Minority POV 49 Rorschach 50 Village pump 51 Inkblots 52 Info about viewing the blots 53 RE: Rorschach reference 54 AfD nomination of Ivan Rohach 55 Its award time! 56 Sluzhba Bezbeky 57 Allow me 58 Procurement, etc. 59 Thanks! 60 UPA, Joe and sources 60.1 Holodomor numbers 61 Image copyright problem with Image:100 0810.JPG 62 anti-Ukrainian nationalist 63 Image copyright problem with Image:100 0810.JPG 64 Image copyright problem with Image:AubrunStateRecreationArea.JPG 65 Happy Easter! 66 Ukrainians of Brazil 67 Sneaky vandalism 68 Your edits on Ukrainians of Brazil 68.1 Ukrainians from... 69 May 2008 70 Citizenship and ethnicity

[edit] Welcome

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  --Irpen 18:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kiev Offensive

I think you raise some very good points on the talk page. Please, don't hesitate to be bold and add more content into the artice itself. It is a godo idea to reference every single fact with the source (i.e. [Subtelny, 2001] or [Babel, year]), especially if there are disputed by some editors. Referenced addition is much harder to remove - as the other side has to prove it is either irrelevant or provide sources showing that other sources are doubtful.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:23, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Any anon should be able to help, but the quickest way to get attention of somebody would probably be Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 18:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 3RR

You are in danger of violating the three-revert rule on a page. Please cease further reverts or you may be blocked from further editing.

I understand that edit-warring against different IP-users pushing strong POV edits can be frustrating, please obey the 3 revert rule. I have semiprotected Ukrainian Insurgent Army article, so there should be less sock-puppeting now abakharev 23:21, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the semi-protection. I would like to point out, however, that my reverts were made against a vandal to the article. regards Faustian 15:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Allow me

Thank you! Although my contributions were made during a lull at work and may be sparse for a while... Faustian 15:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Massacres of Poles in Volhynia

Hi, thanks for explanding on the background of the events in the article. One thing I find slightly disturbing, however, that is the sentence stating that "Ukrainian libraries and reading rooms were burned down by Polish mobs". Was it a common practice or was it incidental ? Also, regarding the Orthodox churches being destroyed, who did this ? Was it Polish administration ? or Catholic Church ? or just Polish people ? Thanks. --Lysy^talk 17:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how common the practice was. It was common enough that Subtelny in his book referred specifically to cultural institutions, while elsewhere I have heard of this happening to libraries and reading rooms. A book at home (I am now at work) contains specific figures on churches and schools and maybe libraries also. The local Polish adminsitration (often acting against the wishes of Pilsudski's central government) was trying to "Polonise" the place and encouraged local Polish hooligans to prevent Ukrainian teachers and activists from teaching peasants how to read and write in Ukrainian. From the Polish side, they may have felt with some justification that the reading rooms and libraries were sources of anti-Polish propaganda. Of course, there was a cycle there in which Polish oppression played a major role in increasing anti-Polish ideas. regards Faustian 17:47, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

You're right of course. I'd only appreciate if you could double check (when you have the time) whether destroying churches or libraries were just individual incidents or not. I susupect (or hope?) that there's not been a common practice of destroying Ukraininan libraries. Or maybe they were just closed down ? Anyway, it's good to have this explained, but we need to be careful not to generalise too easily. --Lysy^talk 17:58, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll check the other book tomorrow (I didn't bring my entire library to work). Subtelny's book, in front of me, states "...the Polish government insisted on the use of Polish in church services and began a campaign, accompanied by the widespread destruction of Orthodox churches, to convert the Orthodox to Catholicism." (pg. 441). "When Polish mobs destroyed Ukrainian cultural institutions, they often did so in secret collusion with local Polish officials" (pg. 432). The number of Ukrainian schools in Volhynia was reduced from 440 to 8 (pg. 439). Hmm..actually he includes the figures for the churches destroyed. I'll include it in the article. Faustian 18:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I recently got a book on the Ethnic cleansing that happened in Volhynia by Serhiychuk who is a historian publishing out of the Kyiv Unversity. It is not as clear cut as the article makes it out to be. The article needs to be rewritten in its entirety to give both sides of the picture.

Obviously there was a lot of lead up. Post 1923 Polish administration did an about face regarding its promises to the Ukrainian population. Ukrainians could only get a 3 grades of eductaion. Poles could get 8. The Ukrainian courses at the University were closed. Prosvitas (reading rooms and libraries) were detroyed particularly during the pacifications of the 30's. There was a gradual esculation in hundreds of things - like the census figures which were altered. Siwicki was born in Volyn during the war was interned in Siberia by the Soviets and then released to fight in the Polish army where he lost a leg (his son sings in my choir) in his book gives an analysis of the census where 99% of the village is marked as being Polish yet 84% were orthodox - an indication of some inaccuracy because the Orthodox were considered Ukrainian and not Polish. There has been alos of esculation by inaccurate photos (I remember the photos which were ascribed to the actions of UPA of children wrapped in barbed wire which later turned out to have been gypsy children murdered by their mother in 1926. The ascribed barbed wire was bends in the photo. - This was made into monument which now stands in Przmysl). An article like this needs to be meticulously documented and carefully written. There are so many interested parties willing to enflame both sides that it needs to be done casrefully, but it needs to be done well. Bandurist 18:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Предлагаю мировую

I think we got of on the wrong foot with each other on Zaporozhian Host. Anyway I wanted to thank you for your NPOVing of History of Christianity in Ukraine. I think this article has great potential to reach FA status. It needs a few more sections on Russian Empire times, as well as Second World War times. Also the Old Believers and Roman Catholic sections need to be expanded. Finally all of this needs to be imaged and consicely referenced, and then have a preview. Seeing your enthusiasm there I think we WILL be able to achieve this. Btw what is your status on Metro? (I am asking because...) --Kuban Cossack 23:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

The metro article looks wonderful. I am not an expert on that , of course, though I know Moscow's downtown system - the best metro system in the world - like the back of my hand. I apologize if my tone ever sounded harsh and respect the fact that although our points of views differ (significantly) you have a lot of knowledge to offer. regards Faustian 13:18, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Well basically me and User:DDima are to build a whole portal (hopefully) on all ex-USSR transport systems, feel free to join in. If you have a digital camera...and happen to be passing one of those cities, don't waste time and get shooting. --Kuban Cossack 14:33, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Petliura and elections, revisited

Could you comment at Talk:Kiev_Offensive#Ukrainian_loyalties? You know much more about this issue then me.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 21:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I've made the comments in the discussion section. Regards, Faustian 13:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Tnx for your continuing efforts to NPOV the KO article. Perhaps you could try your hand at PSW article too, where we have another set of controversies involving Ukrainian participation?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:00, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of Christianity in Ukraine

You have an e-mail, I want to send you something. --Kuban Cossack 11:03, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is my e-mail address: faustian17@hotmail.com. Looking forward to receiving the e-mail. regards Faustian 13:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Faustian,

dlaczego ty jesteś zainteresowany tym żeby z bandytów i siepaczy z UPA robić bohaterów ? 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I am interested primarily for purposes of historical accuracy - I have been quite clear and open about the evil acts committed by some UPA units but this does not excuse exagerations or innacuracies. During the war, most of my relatives who fought were officers in the Polish, German or Soviet militaries. The only exception was my father's cousin, the daughter of a Lwow university professor and member of the Polish noble family de Nalecz, who died while serving in the ranks of UPA.Faustian 13:49, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Numbers

Re: [1]. Army numbers of Petlura: [2] - but I cannot find the 2000 number for the man joining Bolsheviks.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

You're right - 2,000 was Petlioura's, 4,000 were Galicians, some of whom then joined the Red Galician Army in order to sace themselves. My mistake. Faustian 03:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Please do provide full citations. If books, page numbers, if Encyclopedia's, the article's name. TIA, --Irpen 20:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I try to do that, in that case I was only a bit sloppy because Subtelny mentioned the 4,000 Galician soldiers in the same or next sentence as 2,000 Petliura's soldiers. Faustian 20:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

That one is settled. I mean when you refer to the Enc. Ukr., give the article name every time. Also, Petrushevych did not just go to exile. Petlyura dismissed him from Directoria first. You removed that info. --Irpen 20:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I removed the info stating that he was expelled. My sources all indicated that he left voluntarily.

On a separate account, when using sources we should keep in mind their strengths and weaknesses. Usually, sources like Subtelny and Margosci are of high regard. The Kubiyovych's EU is a somewhat different story due to the complications with the neutrallity of its main editor (see the talk page of his article for more). We can generally trust the hard facts he cites, such as dates and numbers, because he is unquestionably a serious academic. At the same time, his interpretations should be taken with a grain of salt as he was not exactly an unbiased figure in Ukrainian history. I am not suggesting that his works are unusable. Even the Soviet Encyclopedias are usable to a some degree. All I am saying that we should be more careful when using Kubiyovych, comparing to using modern respected western scholars who write on Ukrainian history such as Subtelny, Magosci and Wilson. --Irpen 20:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. However your comparison in the discussuion section of the 14th Waffen SS Galicia Division to NKVD battalions is unfair (if Kubiyovych was involved in organizing police battalions or such, it would have been a different story). I am aware of how the 14th Waffen-SS is perceived among ex-Soviet people. The reality is that it was not much different than Polish or Ukrainian legions within the German or Austrian militaries prior to World War I, Polish volunteers in Napoleon's army, etc. His involvement proves that he was a historical player rather than a detached observer, which is an important consideration as you rightly observe, and his opinions should be viewed carefully. But any controversy is about his actions during the war seem to be more about his detractors' falling prey to false information.Faustian 23:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

That "any controversy is about his actions during the war seem to be more about his detractors' falling prey to false information" is just your POV to which you are entitled of course. The problem, howver, is more global than Kubiyovych not being neutral to the WW2 events because he was involved in them. It is important to remember Kubiyovych's personal views were strongly anti-Soviet and, likely, anti-Russian as well. He always was and remains an iconic figure of the Ukrainian Nationalist community. At the same time, his instincts of a real academic, were strong enough so that we should not disqualify his work. We should just use it carefully. Dates and numbers are 100% usable. Opinions and conclusions should be separated from them. This does not apply to Subtelny and Magosci who are western mainstream scholars with none of personal involvement in the anti-Soviet and anti-Russian movement, also professor of respected universities.

I will leave the discussion about SS-Galicia aside for now.

Please add article names when you cite Kubiyobych's encyclopedia. --Irpen 23:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

In terms of Kubiyovych's anti-Sovietism - it should no more disqualify him as a scholar's anti-Nazism shoyuld disqualify him for scholarship involving Nazis. Certainly, if the scholar in question was personally involved in the struggle than one must be careful, but not because of his distaste for the enemy. On the other hand, his personal involvement in the Ukrainian Galician Army and later also make him a rich source of information, having witnessed those events first-hand. There frankly appeared to be more bias in for example the citations from Debo (in particualr, labelling the Ukrainian participation in the Kiev offensive as insignifiant contradicts facts provided by numerous other historians such as Subtleny) than in Kubiyovych's work.

About the hostility towards SS-Galician, I was referring to your correct statement about the general ex-Soviet Ukrainian population's hostile attitude towards the Divison, which is rooted in the ignorance about it learned when growing up in the USSR. Just as most Americans now have a different judgment of Native Americans who resisted European settlement and killed Custer, hiopefully eventually people from Eastern Ukraine will have a more realistic attitude towards UPA or SS-Galician. Faustian 03:33, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Honestely do you really think people will change their attitude towards those who were butchering their grandparents and collaborating with Nazis? Nothing can take away the pride of the young in their grandparents, those Red Army soldiers who did a holly deed in wiping fascism of the face of the earth, and all the filth that went with it. I doubt in 100 years the attitude will change at all. There is no such thing as a more "realistic" attitude towards murderers and killers. --Kuban Cossack 11:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The words above do not apply to either UPA or SS-Galizien. They are spoken from ignorance. Soviet people have no more reason to hate SS-Galizien or UPA than western Ukrainian people to hate regular Red Army soldiers. Poles have more gripes against UPA, but even there attitudes seem to be changing, just as most modern American think differently about the Indian "savages" who once wiped out settlers (jncluding children).Faustian

Ok, let's save this for relevant article's talk pages but for now please add the names of the articles in EncUkr to which your references point. --Irpen 04:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Could you provide citations for requests about Ukrainian numbers in PSW? Otherwise we'll have to remove the information.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:41, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Happy New Year!

Thank you Irpen! Z Novym Godom!!!Faustian 20:55, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rusyns

Hi, what are your thoughts on this edit? Khoikhoi 09:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Provided that the original numbers are referenced, I have no objection to adding up already referenced numbers. regards, Faustian 17:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Христосъ Воскресе!

Ура! :) --Irpen

[edit] Russophiles

Volhynia and Bessarabia were the parts of the Russian empire, and the article is about the movement in the Habsburgh empire. Can I delete irrelevant info about Volhynia and Bessarabia? --Russianname 10:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that seems to be the right thing to do. regards Faustian 13:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Russians in Ukraine

I thought you'd want to look at this article :) -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh boy! Thanks for bringing it to my attention...Faustian 19:27, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind me adding a comment on your main page, its just the red-linking confuses people, and yeah, do please join the article. --Kuban Cossack 21:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I am rather busy (buying a house) for the next several weeks or months and therefore won't contribute much...Faustian 12:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wiktor Poliszczuk

Wiktor Poliszczuk has been proposed for deletion. An editor felt this person might not be notable enough for an article. Please review Wikipedia:Notability (people) for the relevant guidelines. If you can improve the article to address these concerns, please do so.

If no one objects to the deletion within five days by removing the "prod" template, the article may be deleted without further discussion. If you remove the prod template, the article will not be deleted, but if an editor is still not satisfied that it meets Wikipedia guidelines, it may still be sent to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. NickelShoe (Talk) 13:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I've removed that tag, because Poliszczuk is actually an important, often referenced figure among anti-Ukrainian Poles. I think that his biography is important, at the very least for those coming across references of his work in other articles such as this one or [[14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Galizien (1st Ukrainian)

|this one]]. Faustian 13:57, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you, Kuban Kazak

For fixing my userpage...Faustian 18:06, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits to Russian language in Ukraine.

You claim that you have some sources. So please quote them. Then, do not add any irrelevant information 'Rus’ka mova', Ukrainian self-identity, Little Russia and all other dubious and strange things. --Russianname 16:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

• • Пожалуйста, ознакомьтесь с полным текстом Валуевского циркуляра и Эмского указа[3] [4]. Это поможет избежать набивших осномину толкований этих документов как запретов украинского языка. Кстати, легко заметить, что Валуев от своего имени глупостей про то, что украинского языка нет, нигде не говорит; а те, кто так его толкуют просто лгут, о чем надо специально сказать в соответствующей статье. Документы говорят именно о том, о чем они говорят. Валуевский указ запрещал печатанье книг научного и религиозного характера, этот запрет продлился год и не выполнялся, что я легко докажу. Эмский указ запрещал ввоз украиноязычной литературы из Австро-Венгерской империи, но не по причине ее украиноязычности, а как мера по борьбе с социалистическими веяниями. Далее, если этого не хватит, я вам приведу длинную библиографию украинских изданий, осуществленных в России в период действия указа, этот список составил Дмитрий Дорошенко (которому очень далеко до любой политкорректности и очень близко к патологической русофобии). Вообще, и украинский язык, и современный украинский народ, и современная украинская государственность - это все плод действия сначала Российской империи, в которой все понемного развивалось, затем Советского Союза, где, наконец, все украинское получило поддержку, включая и государственность в форме УССР. Поэтому все нападки на русских в этом плане просто странны. С уважением, --Russianname 16:54, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

My sources are from works by respected, established historians such as Orest Subtelny and Paul Magosci. While your claims, above, are interesting I would like to see references to them from legitimate historians rather than from original research.

The information on history and background is relevant and necessary. The history of the Russian language in Ukraine needs no justification to be included in the article. Historical phenomena, including the ban on the Ukrainian language, are a part of that history insofar as they explain part of the reason for the Russian language's historical dominance there. They are also necessary context for the discriminatory anti-Russian countermeasures adopted recently by Ukrainian authorities. Describing anti-Russian language legislation and actions without mentioning Ems and other historical restrictions on the Ukrainian language is, frankly, somewhat analogous writing about the Soviet conquest of Germany without mentioning Barbarrossa. It presents only half the truth, an innacurate portrait.Faustian 17:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

• • Orest Subtelny is not a source. He is author of a book for reading. He is not a historian researcher. And there wer no bans of Ukrainian language. During the "ban" the Ukrianian literature and theater flourished. So please do not add info about Ukrainian history here, this is not appropriate article:

• • • • Of course Subtelny is a historical researcher and a legitimate source. Please read about things more carefully before commenting on them. and hisotircal backgorund on this topic is important.Faustian 14:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

• For much of the nineteenth century the Austrian authorities favoured Polish culture, but the Ukrainians were relatively free to partake in their own cultural pursuits in Galicia and Bukovyna, where Ukrainian was widely used in education and in official documents. The suppression by Russia retarded the literary development of the Ukrainian language in Dnieper Ukraine, but there was a constant exchange with Galicia, and many works were published under Austria and smuggled to the east.

The name 'Ukrajins’ka mova' Ukrainian language became accepted by much of the Ukrainian literary class during the late nineteenth century under Russia . By the time of the Russian Revolution of 1917 and the collapse of Austro-Hungary in 1918, the former 'Ruthenians' or 'Little Russians' were ready to openly develop a body of national literature, to institute a Ukrainian-language educational system, and to form an independent state, named Ukraine (the Ukrainian People's Republic, shortly joined by the West Ukrainian People's Republic). However, in the Russian Empire expressions of Ukrainian culture and especially language were repeatedly persecuted, for fear that a self-aware Ukrainian nation would threaten the unity of the Empire. In 1847 Taras Shevchenko was arrested and exiled, and banned from writing obceneties against the empress who redeemed him from serfdom and painting pornography, for political reasons. In 1863, tsarist interior minister Pyotr Valuyev proclaimed in his decree that "there never has been, is not, and never can be a separate Little Russian language". A following ban on Ukrainian books led up to Alexander II's secret Ems Ukaz, which prohibited the publication and importation of most Ukrainian-language books, public performances and lectures, and even the printing of Ukrainian texts accompanying musical scores. A period of leniency after 1905 was followed by another strict ban in 1914, which also affected Russian-occupied Galicia. --Russianname 09:25, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your interest in the Russian language in Ukraine. Last time we had a discussion at the talk page you noted that changes should be made not by way of exclusion but by way of addition, if I remember it correctly. However, since that time the biased slant increased and indeed through addition of one-sided pictures. It appears the authors of the article have a clear agenda and it is certainly not a well-balanced article. This article is being used by some to vent their political preferences. I am afraid it needs serious rewriting, and some images have to be deleted. The previous approach of balancing it through additon didn't work as some people keep flooding it with one-sided pictures and text. Hope we can work together on improving it. --Hillock65 18:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RFC/USER Russianname

A Request for Comment on User:Russianname has been filed. As user, who had experience of dealing with this individual your comments on this RfC would be appreciated. Thank you. --Hillock65 14:35, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for responding so promptly to RfC. Your comment is very important and is very much appreciated, however, it seemes to be out of place. With your permission I will move into the part Other users who endorse this summary. Please let me know if you object to that move. I am just trying to organize the RfC properly. If you have anything more to add you can use section Outside view, where you can explain your dealings with this user, if you wish to. Thanks again. --Hillock65 14:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

No, I have nothing more to add. Faustian 15:26, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Treaty of Warsaw (1920)

I'd appreciate your comments and copy editing to this new article.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:13, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "the most powerful medieval monarch"

Your additions to the article are good, but I don't think that any claims of being "the most powerful" are encyclopaedic enough for Wikipedia. These are just words thrown about from nationalist perspectives, and there are no facts to substantiate them if we talk about the Middle Ages. There is no way of knowing who was more "powerful" - Danylo or, say, Alexander Nevsky - because these guys never engaged in combat. I suggest we avoid peacock epithets in the future. --Ghirla^-трёп- 16:20, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

While in general I agree, in specific instances it seems to me that such claims are appropriate, for example when a ruler expands his state, which was the case of Roman. The article on Andrei Bogolyubsky follows a similar logic, stating correctly that "during Andrei Bogolyubsky’s reign Vladimir-Suzdal principality attained significant power and was the strongest among the Rus' principalities."

With respect to Danylo, in my edit the wording about "most powerful" applied to Roman (Danylo's father), who did not rule at the same time as Nevsky (incidentally, Vernadsky wrote an interesting comparison of Danylo and Nevsky, regarding them as more or less equals). The claim that Roman was briefly the most powerful of the Rus princes was referenced from a legitimate source and seems logical, given his conquest of Kiev title of "Grand Prince of Kiev." More info on the guy:[5] Faustian 17:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I know who Roman is, thank you. I will not remove your claim again. Suffice it to say that it was not me who wrote the Bogolyubsky article. His preeminence in Rus is hard to dispute, given the fate that befell his opponents in Ryazan and Smolensk. --Ghirla^-трёп- 18:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] K uban

Faustian. Please keep an eye on the K uban c ossack article. The information is very Russophilic. All my edits regarding the Ukraininess of the c ossacks has been edited out, as have all aspects of Ukrainian language and culture there. Recently the addition of the article to the category of Ukrainian population groups was removed despite the fact that Ukrainian c ossacks settled there 200 years ago and Ukrainian is still spoken on the streets. Bandurist 15:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

On the streets? Cossacks live rural stanitsas not in cities. And census shows less than 2% of the population now Ukrainian. Russophilic? Well that's what we are. --Kuban Cossack 15:49, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Just because the people are Russophillic does not mean that they aren't a Ukrainian population group. For example the Galician Russophiles certainly weren't Russian in spite of their ideology. Obviously it would be absurd to describe Kuban as "occupied territory" because the people seem to be quite patriotic towards Russia. But this doesn't make them any less ethnic Ukrainian.Faustian 20:13, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 32 hours

Lets do it like that. If in 32 hours you still have a majority, i stop removing the categories. M.V.E.i. 21:44, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I will continue adding categories because the evidence supports their inclusion. However I hope that after 32 hours or 24 hours or whenever you stop making edits based on your or kuban kozak's or other people's opinions and let the evidence speak for itself.Faustian 22:48, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Faustian, MVEi is rather hot-headed and difficult guy but it gives no one an excuse to engage into sterile revert wars with him. I left him a strongly worded message to cut it but it takes two to revert war. I know you for an excellent editor and I am surprised to see you carried away like this. The so many reverts so fast is never a way to go. The Wikipedia won't collapse if the article will stay in the "wrong" version for a day or two while the discussion is still going. Oh, and as for the dispute itself, I happen to disagree with the cat. I left a note to that degree at the article's talk. I am glad to see that this revert war passed unnoticed by the block-happy admins and you were not blocked. However, please act as if you learned the lesson. Cheers, --Irpen 02:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I had more free time than usual, but will stop the revert wars. bestFaustian 04:18, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cossacks

There has been some activity on the Cossacks page. I have made a number of edits regarding the use of Muscovy and Muscovite. The term Russia is often incorrectly used and is anachronistic as the term only went into use after the Reign of Peter I. Could you please review my corrections. Thanks Bandurist 06:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Bandurist, this is a false assertion. Read Britannica. --Irpen 06:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Would it make sense to refer to Ruthenians specifically from Ukraine (such as Khmelnytsky) as Ukrainians in this case?Faustian 13:15, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion using the term Ruthenian in this context tends to muddle up the situation with the Ruthenians of Yugolsavia. Faustian, do youhave an email address? Bandurist 16:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:Rorschach inkblot test

Easy tiger, steady as she goes, if everyone stays calm we might get a consensus. Which would be really good, yes?MarkAnthonyBoyle 15:06, 1 October 2007 (UTC) All quiet on the western front.... fingers crossed eh? MarkAnthonyBoyle 10:42, 2 October 2007 (UTC) Oh well, there goes the neighbourhood, looks like it's off again! shame MarkAnthonyBoyle 00:32, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

This is a hot issue for some people; it almost seems like an intense political or religious debate. I appreciate your efforts at being calm and reasonable.Faustian 17:00, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Would you like to participate

User:Kuban kazak/Ukrainian architecture, it only is a draft, but with good input we can make it an FA within days, care to be part of the team? --Kuban Cossack 19:11, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

It looks good, although I don't know enough about architecture to contribute much. Thank you for the invitation though, you are doing a good job there.Faustian 00:32, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Massacres in Volhynia

Hi, I just want to say that I am very glad we have avoided edit wars concerning this delicate subject. As you have noticed, I am expanding this article, not to incite hatred, but to inform readers about these events. I do appreciate your help, and what is left for us to do now is to live peacefully and do our best to avoid such massacres in the future. I do not hold any personal grudge against Ukrainians, but these events need to be described just like Holocaust. Greetings. Tymek 18:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. A word of caution to you, however, that you seem to have a tendency to use dubious and sensationalistic sources such as Poliszczuk or the Siemaszkos who magnify the events or make things up. We should stick to historians rather than agitators. regardsFaustian 19:15, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I just wanted to add that I like your recent edits...Faustian 18:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I changed this sentence: “In return, the Polish side also engaged in acts of brutality and vengeance”

You had changed it before, but all sources I possess state that the massacres were initiated by Ukrainians (including Davies and Snyder). Operation Vistula, a shameful event, was started by the Poles, but it is a different story. Poles in Volhynia, outnumbered 6 to 1, would have been suicidal if they had started the massacres first. Greetings and I am always open for discussion, if you have sources that state differently, let me know. Thank you Tymek 19:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Allegedly Polish police working for the Germans started killing Ukrainian civilians in the western edge of Volhynia, where the Poles were not outnumbered, rather than in the middle of the region. Subtelny repeats the claim but also states that noone knows who really started it. Faustian 19:40, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I have no doubts about quality of Subtelny's work, and many Polish historians reported some skirmishes between Ukrainian and Polish police but I do not know if these events can be connected in any way to the massacres. These skirmishes mostly were the result of mutual dislike and were not organized and prepared. However, I seriously doubt if incidents described by Subtelny marked the beginning of the massacres. I am putting aside Polish historians in this matter, and out of those few who wrote about very massacres, all so far agree that they were started by the Ukrainians. Thanks for you appreciation, it is very nice to exchange opinion with you Tymek 22:10, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

M. Siwicki (Zapysky siroho Volyniaka Lviv 1996 - p.39) states that the census of 1931 was falsified. The Polishcensus stated that of the 2 085 574 people living in Volhyn 1 428 341 (68.9%) were Ukrainian.

He further states Hernyk Josewski (Wspomnienia "Zeszyty historyczne' Paryz, 1982 nr 60 s. 72) stated that the true population was made up of Ukrainains 80%. Poles 16%. Significant numbers of Jews lived in the cities. There were some Russians and Czechs and Germans. Education was in a terrible state. In the middle schools 344 (14%) Ukrainian to 2599 Poles. Of the 80 Ukrainians who qualified to get into Tertiary studies only 3 were accepted in 1938/9. (p.40)

The 1931 census gives 3 762 500 Orthodox christians in Vohyn - 69% Ukrainian 29 % belorusan, 2-3% Russian, Czechs and Poles.

In 1926 at a conference regarding the Ukrainian problem the Polish minister of religion and education Antoni Sujkowski stated that that Volyn was 80% Ukrainian. (Siwicki p.63) In 1926 the Polish Policy called the Volyn program was announced for the state assymilation of Volyn by Josewski. The "Sokalski" administrative border was set up to stop the dissemination of literature from Halychyna to Volyn.

Skorowidz miejscowosc Rzeczpospolitej Polskiej wedlug spisu z 30.IX.1921 r. wojewodstwo Wolynskie

gives for the whole of Volyn: Roman Catholics - 1,666,512 Orthodox - 1,066,842 Poles - 240,922 Rusyns - 983,596

Siwicki (p 182) questions where 74, 410 Poles had appeared who were not Roman Catholic. From the statistics Siwicki states thatthe accuracy of the census is indoubt. Bandurist 01:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi Bandurist. I have read that the Polish census might have been falsified, and this info comes from Polish books, but we have no credible proof for it, after so many years, and this article is not about demographics of interbellum Volhynia. I will make a little change in the article , I will write that Ukrainians made at least 68% in Volhynia, as we do not know the exact number today. Anyway, I suggest we move our comments to the article's talk page. Greetings Tymek 01:59, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Award

		For Bravery - 3rd degree
		You are hereby awarded this Ukrainian National Award "For Bravery" in recognition of your contributions to Ukraine-related historical articles, insistence on credibly sourced statements, and fight against vandalism. Salut!--Riurik(discuss) 22:58, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you!Faustian 23:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

The disruptive anon user's IP (83.22.185.31) is from Wawelno, Opolskie region in Poland. For the next two weeks, anonymous vandalism should not be a problem, and focus can be shifted to constructive edits instead of police work.--Riurik^(discuss) 22:58, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ukrainians in Kuban

I hope you have read the recent discussion on Irpen's talk page, (read if you didn't). Anyway overall I am very pleased with our work on the section and your final edit summary is very much welcomed. Now that that is settled, I wish to move onto the actual article which shares the title of the section. Realising that one editor will be very sensistive to the issue, I don't wish to carry out any edits there just yet, but I want us to agree on what to do with that article now. The question is do we need it? We already have a comprehensive section with Ukrainians in Russia. Of course we can futher broaden it so that it fully encompases whatever information that is true from that article, and that is not a collection of POV nonsense ( which I trust even you see just how absurd some of the sections there look,). Ideally that would be the case. We can also do a History of the Kuban, so that some information will overlap, we can further expand the Kuban Cossacks, and generally the Demographics sections on the article about Krasnodar Kray. A special note on Ukrainization, Balachka and Ukrainian language could be expanded. My point is that our section on the Ukrainians in Russia is broad enough and remember you can actually point the reader to the right article's respective section using the same ref citation except instead of the refrence itself add , /"see also that at [this#that|this]"/. What do you think? --Kuban Cossack 17:24, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll be busy for a little while and can't respond in detail, but my quick response is that the Ukrainians in Kuban article should stand although edits to it would be helpful. It's an interesting and important subject worthy of an article.

One note on balachka that should be added (the article is blocked from editing) is that linguists do consider it a dialect of the Ukrainian language, albeit one with extensive Russian and others influences that differs significantly from standard Ukrainian. Indeed, even the tsarist authorities declared it to be a variant of Little Russian as per the 1897 census. This is an important point which shouldn't have been taken out. bestFaustian 18:12, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Well any answer is good, the trouble is that in its current state it has to be re-written completely and the finished result would not be much different from our section in Ukrainians in Russia. So the point?

As for balachka, remember that in 1897 Little Russian, was considered to be but a branch of Russian. In fact as Zakharchenko points out, it makes little difference which one you include it in, because the dialect is as Russian as it is Ukrainian, and its neither. Just how much more influence the two languages have on it is for linguists to point out.

Also I know you don't like personal relations, but what do you make of Hillock's disrespect to our mutual agreement? --18:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with his judgment of that section, it seems fine to me now. I think the Ukrainians in Kuban article offers more info than would be appropriate for the general article on Ukrainians in Russia, so it's appropriate for it to be a seperate article. I haven't looked at it carefully but in my brief view it doesn't seem to be grossly inappropriate or propagandistic. best,Faustian 18:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I've read the Ukrainian in Kuban article. Overall, the genocidal implications of the dispaearance of Ukrainian identity need to be changed, and I would like references for the valuable info, but it seems like a pretty good article.Faustian 21:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dmowski 3RR

Dear Faustian. As we have always edited peacefully, I am just saying this here - at Roman Dmowski you have broken the WP:3RR rule. Please consider self-reverting. I don't indent to report you at WP:ANI/3RR since I know you are editing in good faith, but breaking 3RR is a bad habit.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. I thought that I was careful about making changes rather than mere reverts before reaching the third revert.Faustian (talk) 15:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My mistake

I mentioned elsewhere some time ago that the Ukraine article in EB was written by Taras Kuzio. In fact, it was my memory glitch. Most of the UA history was written by Lubomyr Hajda from Harvard. Sorry for misleading you. --Irpen 08:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. It's an example of my high regard for you that I automatically take your statements as facts. We all make mistakes once in a while.Faustian (talk) 14:05, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. That does not change the fact that Kuzio is of course a respectable scholar. Check out his blog, btw. --Irpen 14:30, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rorschach Issue

You may be right, although it's probably not doing any more damage than the website that caused the most recent controversy with User:MilesAgain. He was demanding details and insisting on adding inaccurate information about a website that does a tremendous disservice to anyone who visits it in hopes of learning how to respond on the Rorscach. I think listing the coding sequence without additional details (something I did hesitate to to do) does far less damage. Simply exposing the images, as the website and so many Wikipedia editors are hell-bent on doing, surely does far more damage to the naive reader. And Exner's books are available for anyone to read. But your question is a good one that I have kept and will keep in mind as I edit. I'm trying to balance some very conflicting ethical issues that have been created by a controversial test that falls prey to inflammatory Wikipedia editors. Let's face it: any potential test-taker who looks for details on Wikipedia and its links is probably in jeopardy of an invalid administration. Thanks for the thoughtful question. I am always open to reasonable discussion. Ward3001 (talk) 14:02, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Roman Dmowski

Please, stop changing article about Roman Dmowski as u do now by adding such as information about his "homosexuality" what is not true or you will be banned for vandalism. Thank you.

--Krzyzowiec (talk) 19:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Information stays and is not vandalism.Faustian (talk) 23:36, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Thank you for your cooperation with the article on Massacres in Volhynia. Good job, Tymek (talk) 05:16, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] You are right, but why did you revert??

In the intruduction to Vladimir Vernadsky i wrote: was a Russian mineralogist and geochemist whose ideas of noosphere were an important contribution to the Russian cosmism of mixed Russian and Ukrainian ethnicity. Shpakovich (talk) 17:31, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

So why did you revert? You said you cant delete the fact that he was half Ukrainian, while i i did was adding the fact he was half Russian. Shpakovich (talk) 17:31, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

P.S. In Nationality i restored Ukrainian to, you were right here.

In the Categories i removed Ukrainian Scientists, because it's to general, and instead entered Ukrainian biologists, which wasn't here before. Shpakovich (talk) 17:31, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I wont revert you because if you wrote something i guess you have a reason for that, but i do think i should ask it: The link i gave states only he was again independent and considered himself Russian, could you please explain where is it written he also considered himself a Ukrainian? Shpakovich (talk) 17:33, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

P.S. I'm against link-mania so i dont need a link. I trust your words. Shpakovich (talk) 17:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I reread and clarified. There is a lot of info on his nationality on both sources [6] and [7].Faustian (talk) 17:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bandurist

Faustian I think what happened at Balachka in my absence is absolutely unacceptable, I am keen to go for a full RfC, will you support me, or be involved. I don't mind discussing issues but this has gone too far. --Kuban Cossack 12:24, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I've made some changes to the article. Bandurist has a POV but he also provides good information. regards Faustian (talk) 18:41, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Well thanks for your additions, btw can you reply to my compromise suggestion on the poster ASAP, and also fix the caption of the coat for arms I added? --Kuban Cossack 20:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] question

Hey, could you tell me what page the cartoon that you mentioned earlier is on in the Ukrainians Unexpected Nation book? I have the book, but haven't yet gotten around to reading it. Thanks, Ostap 21:48, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I will look at it when I get home. I believe it depicted Ukraine and Russia before and after Pereyaslav; the Ukrainian Cossack represting Ukraine was proud and healthy pre-Pereyaslav, and in the after picture he was half-naked and half-starved. I'm going by memory and haven't looked at the book for a while.Faustian (talk) 21:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

It's on page 64. regardsFaustian (talk) 23:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I found it earlier. Not bad. Ostap 21:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that that image (assuming copyright isn't a problem) plus the Communist propaganda poster would both be good for the Pereyaslav article in illustrating that treaty's legacy. At the same time, that poster (or another similar image, such as the Tsarist-era painting) along with Ukraine's coat of arms would work in the Zaporozhian legacy section.Faustian (talk) 21:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Linking to images

I have removed most links added by User:KKonstantin per 'What wikipedia is not', and several also per the external links guideline. For the former, wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a linkfarm, for the latter, links to documents hosted on unreliable sources as imageshack may be in violation of WP:COPYRIGHT, they look reproductions of official documents and may very well be under copyright.

The main question is, why do they link in the external links sections, why not upload a/some suitable picture(s) and actually discuss the issue. That would be more encyclopedia than adding complete linkfarms. I hope this explains my removal of all these links, and I suggest, as I have suggested User:KKonstantin to discuss the issue on the talkpages first instead of unilateral re-adding the images. See you around. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 14:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unsolicited answer

...Because he's always right, and everyone else is wrong.--Riurik^(discuss) 06:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] UPA Nazi collaboration

I would need to check sources for more details, but some things I remember right off are: UPA was fighting against Germans mostly throughout 1943 and has entered into armistice in the end of 1943, while both Nazis and UPA continued fighting against Poles. UPA was also receiving weapons, ammunition and other equipment and supplies from the Nazis throughout 1944. In return UPA agreed to secure certain mountain passes in Carpathians for the Germans. So both parties provided services to each other. And through conducting military operations for Germans, UPA actively collaborated with the occupier forces. The collaboration ended only in the beginning of 1945. What do you think ? --Lysy^talk 23:03, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I haven't heard about UPA securing mountain passes for the Germans; on the contrary, I heard that they were fighting against the Germans for mountain passes. Again, collaboration involved putting oneself under the authority of the Germans - such as police under German command (which OUN did, although for their own purposes) or the SS division, or administrators within the German occupational regime. UPA cooperation seemed to have been more of an alliance against a common enemy, like that of the Finns with Germany, rather than service to the occupier as in the case of typical case of collaboration such as Vichy France. The wikipedia definition of Collaborationism states: Collaborationism, as a pejorative term, can describe the treason of cooperating with enemy forces occupying one's country. As such it implies criminal deeds in the service of the occupying power, including complicity with the occupying power in murder, persecutions, pillage, and economic exploitation as well as participation in a puppet government.

In this case, it's tricky. On the one hand, UPA cooperated against someone occupying their country. However they did so in order to fight against someone else whom they saw as trying to occupy their country (either Poland or the USSR). And I have not yet seen evidence that UPA (instead of the OUN's police in 1941) committed criminal deeds such as murder or persecutions or pillaging in the service of Germany while cooperating with the Germans.Faustian (talk) 04:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it's a matter of terminology then. And Point Of View of course. For example according to international law, UPA partisans were citizens of occupied Poland. Anyway, for the record, some facts that I found in a reasonable (Polish) source. I don't want to put them all into the article, it's for your information only. UPA provided Germans with intelligence. For example provided Gestapo with information about Polish communist Gwardia Ludowa in Lviv region. On December 9 1943 UPA made an agreement with Germans in Volodymyr-Volynskyi (confirmed on December 20) about cooperation in fighting Polish 27th Home Army Infantry Division. As I mentioned before UPA was also often armed by Germans. On March 5 1944 UPA proposed their "unconditional and full loyalty" to the Germans. On March 12 1944 UPA again agreed to provide intelligence for Germans, who in turn supported creating UPA structures in Nazi-controlled territories. Also in March Germans in Galicia cooperated with UPA units against Polish population (and against Soviet partisans). On April 2 1944 the head of Volhynian UPA again promised Germans delivering intelligence materials in return for German arms. The results of cooperation with UPA were highly rated in German reports. In September Germans asked UPA to secure certain mountain passes in Carpathians against the Soviets, which UPA did. In return Germans agreed to release captured UPA and OUN members. In Bukovina UPA coordinated their actions with German 7th Division. In December 1944 UPA recaptured several groups of German POV from Soviets, and transferred them to German Army. So certainly there was cooperation, and military or intelligence cooperation with the occupiers is collaboration. --Lysy^talk 18:21, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

This information above, with good references, should be incorporated into the article. It seems that as the article increases in length, individual articles with all the details about UPA and Germans, UPA and Soviets, can be created with briefer summaries of those articles in the main article (something similar has been done with the Massacre of Poles in Volyn, although those massacres also cover non-UPA killing)) Thank you.Faustian (talk) 19:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think there could be also an article explaining the Ukrainian-Polish relations during World War II. The Massacre of Poles in Volyn covers one side of the story only. But this would be a really difficult article to write and to maintain. --Lysy^talk 19:13, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

With respect to collaboration and UPA, it is a difficult matter. Poland's legal authority over western UKraine was somewhat questionable - Poland was granted theright to rule over it by the League of Nations with the Polish promise of autonomy and a referendum in September 1939. Those conditions were not met by Poland. So UPA can probably not be considered Poles (even though it's members were mostly Polish citizens) serving an occupier against their own (fellow Polish) people.

Afterward, there were two powers trying to occupy western Ukraine (eastern Ukraine was legally speaking not occupied by the USSR). UPA's cooperation with the Germans seemed to be limited to ways that helped UPA fight the next, Soviet, occupier of western Ukraine. They did not help the Germans against their own people (as, say, in the case of police, or informants, etc. more correctly thought of as collaborators). They seemed more to be allies than collaborators.Faustian (talk) 19:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course, this depends largely on POV. The fact that Western Ukrainians were in the eyes of the west citizens of Poland e.g allowed Anders to save soldiers of SS Galicia from being deported to Soviet Union. Anyway, from the Polish perspective they were helping the Germans against Poles, and against AK, which was the Polish Army legally recognized by the western allies. Of course UPA perspective was clearly different. As for the Finns, they were not collaborating in the sense that Germans were not considered occupants but ally of Finland up to certain moment. The Finns did not even let the Germans cross Finland to attack Soviet Union. Anyway, I don't want to trash your talk page with overly-long discussions. Thanks. --Lysy^talk 19:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi, don't worry about overloading my talk pages - I can always move the conversation somewhere else. My point is that in many cases people are clearly collaborators (Vichy France, Quisling, Ukrainian or Jewish police working for Germans etc.). Unlike those cases, with UPA's cooperation it depends upon one's POV. It's much messier. Perhaps Finland might not be a good example. Would you consider Polish troops fighting for Napoleon against Russia to be collaborators?Faustian (talk) 20:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ukrainian Insurgent Army Arbitration

You should be aware that a Request for Arbitration has been filed on the above article, which lists you as an Involved Party. You may review and participate in the Arbitration at WP:RFARB#Ukrainian Insurgent Army; please visit that page and make your statement, which will then be considered by the Arbitrators before they make a decision to accept or decline the Request.

Information on Arbitration is available at Wikipedia:Arbitration, and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/How to present a case provides material that you may be interested in reading at your leisure. Cheers, Anthøny 16:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for informing me...Faustian (talk) 18:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

• You noticed - perfect. Would be good to see an origins of Hurby battle and other Jo0doe (talk) 21:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Please check this out: Controversy regarding the Nachtigall Battalion

and also check out http://memorial.kiev.ua/content/view/539/149/ amazing materials. Thanks Bandurist (talk) 21:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks!Faustian (talk) 22:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vasyl Kuk

Hey have a read here [8], also have a look at the link I posted at Talk:Holodomor (very bottom). How would you go about this? --Kuban Cossack 20:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting article, I would include the info in the Kuk wikipedia entry, stating that it came from an interview. Thanks!Faustian (talk) 21:21, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Barnstar (history)

		The Epic Barnstar
		For "particularly fine" contributions to historical entries, continued commitment to veracity, and extensive coverage of topics related to Ukraine, you are hereby awarded this Barnstar.--Riurik(discuss) 22:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks!Faustian (talk) 22:58, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comment

Congratulations! I am sorry, I am way behind your discussions with JoeDoe. But I can't help notice their getting angry sometimes. Please try your best to avoid discussing him. He is "no bargain" (my dictionary translates Russian "не подарок" that way) but we can't deny that he brings a lot of useful sources. I asked him at his talk too to cut it and he does not take my request graciously, but well, let's lead by example. Cheers and congratulations again. --Irpen 00:41, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I've already started moving away from insults.Faustian (talk) 02:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I already saw that. Thanks a lot. I simply do not have enough time to join the UPA article now but I am following the discussion. Re Joe's recent talk page entries, I slightly moderated it and removed some direct references to you as a person. As for his points, at least half of them seems valid. Let's make sure we address them properly. It is difficult to request from him to present his own version of the contentious parts of the article to work from there towards the compromise since his English just won't allow him to do this. But we should continue to work this out since the neither the article now no his version in the raw would satisfy NPOV. Just my two cents. --Irpen 20:20, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I warned Joe again. BTW, you should take a cup of tea every time you are provoked, whether by Joe or by another user. Never ever give anyone an excuse to paint you what you are not. This is a frequently used trick in content disputes. Thanks for your efforts. --Irpen 21:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inkblot disclaimer

Wikipedia doesn't normally use disclaimers & one is advised to remove them on sight. нмŵוτнτ 04:35, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Not all situations are the same. In the case of the inkblot, people have a right to know the potential consequences of going to the link. What's wrong with that?Faustian (talk) 05:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Zaporozhets za Dunayem

Can you write a legacy section to finish off my newly expanded article on the Danubian Sich. --Kuban Cossack 15:50, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll try, at some point, but I am busier now than I have been for several weeks and will probably focus my time on keeping things from getting out of hand in the UPA article. warmly, Faustian (talk) 15:49, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Still what about some feedback? --Kuban Cossack 01:01, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I like the article very much; there are some minor grammar and stylistic issues that I will work on when I have a chance, and there need to be more references I think. I'll add more about the Rusnaks if I can find it on the internet.warmly,Faustian (talk) 15:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

That's what I consider dubious... according to the sources including some Ukrainian langauge publications all found at the bottom of the page. After Gladky defected to Russia, the Sultan called upon Janissaries who wiped out whoever remained in the Sich and sacked it as well, and even those Cossacks rallied for war were disarmed and died in forced labour deep in Anatolia. That would rule out the Rusnaks being descendants of the Danubian Sich, so who are they descendants of? You are right there is hardly any sources that can be found about them, moreover the link gives to the Rusyn language. That's why I marked it as dubious. --Kuban Cossack 18:53, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I moved the remaining part of the talk to the article's talk page. --Kuban Cossack 16:46, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks!Faustian (talk) 16:53, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Danube Cossack Host

Care to examine that one as well? Can you re-read Bachinskaya's refrence to see if there are any facts that I left out? I know that unlike the one above it is far less significant in terms of the historic role it had to play, but nonetheless Cossacks deserve attention. --Kuban Cossack 20:52, 13 March 2008 (UTC) You might also want to look at this. --Kuban Cossack 21:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Dear Faustian your actions in Articles Holodomor and Ukrainian Insurgent Army decribed as WP:Vandalism - blanking. Also you recent edits "Now you are cherry-picking wikipedia's policies";"You don't base this on any of the secondary sources" ; your unreferenced claims and speculations, as typical ;Your poor grasp of the English language is obvious ; you lie by ommission; That's just your POV - I assume as personal attack. However you add to article like "popuIts growth and strength reflected its popularity among the western Ukrainian people", On July 26, 1944, near the village of Nedilna, the UPA defeated another German division, and captured its entire supply column, including many officers and soldiers \In November 1943, UPA battle groups Black Forest and Makivka defeated 12 German battalions supported by the German air-force, in a battle over control of UPA-held territory.UPA's membership is estimated to have consisted of 60% peasants or low to moderate means, 20-25% workers, and 15% from the intelligensia (students, urban professionals). The latter group provided a large portion of UPA's military trainers and officer corps.[9] Sixty percent of UPA's membership was from Galicia and 30% from Volhynia and Podolia etc decrebed as Deception Jo0doe (talk) 09:15, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, referenced info from secondary sources belong in wikipedia. When you cherry-pick info from a primary source that directly contradicts a summary from the secondary source, your cherry-picked info will be deleted. Wikipedia, after all, relies on secondary sources. It's unfortunate that you disagree.Faustian (talk) 17:06, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] On a totally unrelated note

Hopefully not a bother, but I just noticed your userpage has a redlinked image that seems to have been deleted at some point (log says there's an identical image on Commons). The deleted revision looks very similar to Image:WikiOgre2.png. If you were newer I might just go ahead and replace it, but as is I'll just bring that to your attention. Cheers. – Luna Santin (talk) 00:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm not new, but I am technologically handicapped.Faustian (talk) 02:10, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Minority POV

Hey there. I noticed you keep making the comparison between scientists who dispute the Rorschach's effectiveness to scientists who dispute mankind as the catalyst for global warming. They're both valid points of view, but as the minority, their respective articles only mention them in passing, which is fair per WP:NPOV. However, you then go on to equate intelligent design proponents with global warming opponents. This doesn't seem accurate, and seems like you're trying to single out a specific group by tacking on additional things you think they're wrong about (namely the conservative Christian scientific community). I'm sure there are plenty of atheistic, pro-evolution scientists out there who do not believe that global warming is man-made, and that they are not even the minority. Coreycubed (talk) 18:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I was merely contrasting a minority but legitimate scientific view (global warming skeptics) with a view (intelligent design) that is not considered legitimate within the context of the scientific community.Faustian (talk) 18:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rorschach

"It seems the compromise issue is heating up again...Faustian 19:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)"

Unfortunately, I'm quite aware. I had cautioned Dela Rabadilla that posting an RfC would bring out all of the image-must-be-shown zealots from all corners of the universe, but I think he naively thought that people can be rationale. I've fought this battle so much that I am war-weary. I may make a comment at some point, especially if the consensus is hanging in the balance. But I don't have it in me to keep fighting this issue over and over. I'll keep an eye on it though. Thanks for the message. Ward3001 (talk) 20:28, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The case for not showing the original inkblots needs your feedback. You could maybe add some references.--Dela Rabadilla (talk) 02:31, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Village pump

While I disagree with your basic position in regards to the inkblot issue, you do put that position across very well and if you have the time would appreciate your input here. I'm not looking to rehash the inkblot issues but rather think that a general discussion about the broader issues around the use of medical and other factual material would be of benefit to the community. --Fredrick day (talk) 21:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for my attention. I'm leaving work and won't be on the computer tonight (anniversary dinner) but will try to take a look tomorrow....Faustian (talk) 21:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inkblots

I am removing myself from this discussion based on your incivility and personal attacks. I hope that you, in the future, keep to discussing the article in question and away from the editors who edit it. Thanks, нмŵוτнτ 20:39, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if I have offended you, but what that I have written was an attack or uncivil? I am, admitedly, somewhat frustrated by the refusal to actually address the rules but I think that I haven't crossed any lines. So I guess you won't address the rules? Faustian (talk) 20:41, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Rorschach inkblot test. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. нмŵוτнτ 20:36, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I haven't reverted anything there. What gives?Faustian (talk) 21:07, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Info about viewing the blots

Hi, concerning this edit — would you have a source to reference this ? I am not implying that what you wrote is incorrect, quite the opposite — since this is the center of the current discussion, I'd be interested in knowing more about this. I did not want to tag your edit {{refneeded}} since this may have been seen as agressive in the current context (this, and the fact that the page is protected, obviously). Thanks in advance if you have any information. Schutz (talk) 20:54, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] RE: Rorschach reference

That's an interesting point. I'm not sure if I have actually read that prior exposure jeopardizes test validity, or if I was just taught that. I think it sometimes depends on the motivation of the examinee. As I'm sure you know, some variables have high test-retest reliability, so obviously prior viewing in those situations has little effect. But if the examinee is trying to engage in impression management (e.g., a forensic case), prior exposure could make a big difference.
We might be hard pressed to find a source besides Exner to support potential invalidity from prior exposure, but I'll look when I go to my office on Monday. Ward3001 (talk) 21:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Even in tests with high test-retest reliability (such as the Wechsler tests) the tests need to be administered long after prior administration for them to be valid (I think in the case of the WAIS, a year or so) due to prior exposure.Faustian (talk) 04:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I have not completed a thorough search yet, but I have a communication for you that I prefer to do by email if you don't mind. If that's OK with you here's my email address: the left side of the address is identical to my Wikipedia user name. The right side is at yahoo dot com. Thanks. Ward3001 (talk) 23:08, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] AfD nomination of Ivan Rohach

Please make a comment Bandurist (talk) 03:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

An editor has nominated Ivan Rohach, an article on which you have worked or that you created, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also "What Wikipedia is not").

Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ivan Rohach and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~).

[edit] Its award time!

		The Barnstar for Manga reading Canadian wood-cutters!
		congratulations. You deserve it. Ostap 01:31, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

LOL. Thanks...Faustian (talk) 04:52, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sluzhba Bezbeky

A tag has been placed on Sluzhba Bezbeky, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a very short article providing little or no context to the reader. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. If you plan to expand the article, you can request that administrators wait a while for you to add contextual material. To do this, affix the template {{hangon}} to the article and state your intention on the article's talk page. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Blanchardb-^{Me•MyEars•MyMouth}-timed 20:02, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Allow me

I hereby award you the both halves of the, so called, "Half Barnstar" whose name should not mislead anyone into being anything but a full award. This is "for your excellence in Cooperation, especially for productive editing together with someone who holds diametrically opposed or simply different viewpoints". There are many articles where you displayed such attitude but what particularly stands out is your ability to work with Jo0Doe through finding a significant constructive part in his often erratic edits and ignoring the outbursts. Please keep up the good work and continue not allowing yourself to be dragged into the shouting matches! I know how difficult it is with opponents of certain temper. Thank you for your patience and contributions. --Irpen 08:46, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, although I don't seem to be exactly cooperating with the guy. Instead I take what there is of value in his contributions and delete the rest. Unfortunately with him it doesn't seem to be a collaborative effort....Faustian (talk) 02:36, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Our friend Joe is not the only case I had in mind. His is just the most recent one. As for this guy, his main value is his sources that no one else has. Incorporating what is useful in them is the job we all have to do. You are doing what you can and manage to ignore the personal spats with incredible patience. You well deserved an award. --Irpen 03:04, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Well thank you, it means a lot.Faustian (talk) 03:43, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Procurement, etc.

Re JoeDoe, I notice that you take pains in incorporating whatever is salvageable from his edits into the article's text. I believe the same should be done with his sources "procurement" and other info for the Holodomor article. I understand that people may not always have time to rework his edits to make encyclopedic content out of them, but this is what eventually needs to be done rather than this two-months long slow edit war. What do you think? (P.S. I am not saying that it is your job to do. I am just speaking in general here.) --Irpen 23:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I tried hiding that section once (rather than deleting it) until someone could fix it. But then the edit war resumed again.Faustian (talk) 02:45, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks!

Лучше поздно чем никогда. If you have not noticed, I am bringing this to light. BTW I think you might wish to reconsider your opinion of Gladky, have a look his grave is located right next Zaporozhian State University, where he died as a retired General in 1866? The fact that his descendants have made prominance in the following years also separates his fate from others. The character deserves films and memorials. Incidently the descendants of the Azov host (the first two regiments here) have recently suggested to rename one of the Stanitsas in his honour, there are definitely an Ulitsa Osipa Gladkogo in most of them. --Kuban Cossack 14:57, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Here is something else I found might be worth a read. --Kuban Cossack 15:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

The web page [9] is being blocked here at work but I will try to access it from home.Faustian (talk) 20:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I looked at the webpage, and my opinion about Hladky hasn't changed. It seems he abandoned his wife and four kids for many years before embarking on his adventure, which fits his pattern of behavior. He was rewarded well, though.Faustian (talk) 02:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] UPA, Joe and sources

Just to let you know that I fully agree with this edit of yours.

On a different topic, I am going to make a strongest effort to carry a message to Joe about the tone of his entries. He used up his quota of patience and, frankly, I admire your ability to ignore his offenses and just keep editing. You have no obligation to tolerate such a row of persistence attacks and I will now vigorously watch this.

Also, please take a look at the questions about sources of the Famine article. I am interested in your opinion and if you need a full version of the paper emailed to you, you just need to ask. Cheers, --Irpen 23:56, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the support, and help. At some point I decided that I've spent so much time on the UPA article that no matter hwo much more time I invest, I will do it in order to prevent my time invested from having been wasted by having the article seriously damaged. But this leaves me less time for other edits. Ironically, I probably have much less family connections to the OUN or UPA than the majority of other Ukrainians from the diaspora and don't even particalarly like the OUN's ideology.

With respect to the paper on the Famine, I think that the same problem with the same editor is evident here as in the UPA article. As wikipedia editors, we have to stick to secondary sources - the basis of wikipedia articles - and what those sources conclude. We do not second-guess those conclusions, estimate what the author really meant, etc. no matter how much evidence we can present to make our case. Doing so is original research. The quotes from the conclusion section seems to be the final word on what that source said. Period. So I fully agree with your comments. There is, I guess, the temptation by those who have access to archives to turn wikipedia articles into original research papers, which contradicts wikipedia policy (and these policies are in place for a very good reason). regardsFaustian (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Holodomor numbers

OK, here is what we know now. Vallin's group are professional demographers of impeccable respectability and we are not (at least I am not) familiar with any other thorough demographic research of the number of victims specifically for Ukraine published in peer-reviewed literature. So, here are the sources that we can check:

• Source 1: Jacques Vallin, France Mesle, Serguei Adamets, Serhii Pyrozhkov, "A New Estimate of Ukrainian Population Losses during the Crises of the 1930s and 1940s", Population Studies, Vol. 56, No. 3. (Nov., 2002), pp. 249-264. Abstract available here. Full version available with subscription but I have it, read and double checked and provided to several users.
• Source 2 (also here: France Meslé, Gilles Pison, Jacques Vallin, "France-Ukraine: Demographic twins separated by history", Population and Societies, no. 413, June 2005,The monthly newsletter of the Institut national d’études démographiques ISSN 0184-7783 (PDF full version was off-line for a couple of hours today but now back online, I downloaded a copy if it goes off line again)

Here is what I see. Source one appears a very thorough work. It is published in the world's leading demography peer-reviewed journal. The work is sufficiently detailed and puts all the data and calculations on the table. All math they use is within the means of my comprehension and I've read it in full. Work concludes with:

The disasters of the decade culminated in the horrific famine of 1933. [...] Our estimates suggest that total losses can be put at 4.6 million, 0.9 million of which was due to forced migration, 1 million to a deficit in births, and 2.6 million to exceptional mortality.

Source 2:

What is striking in the long-term picture of Ukrainian life expectancy is the devastating impact of the calamities of the 1930s and 1940s (Fig.3). In 1933, the famine which had occasioned unparalleled excess mortality of 2.2 million ⁽²⁾, cut the period life expectancy to a low of under 10 years ^[2].

⁽²⁾ 2.6 million deaths in 1933 instead of the normal 433,000 to be expected from previous trends.

^[2]France MESLÉ and Jacques VALLIN - Mortalité et causes de décès en Ukraine au XXe siècle, Les Cahiers de l’Ined, no. 152, Ined, 2003, 396 p. With this appendix

What we actually need is to access and read the French paper. Something I cannot do.

On top of these two numbers (2.2 and 2.6 mln from the same author) we have the calculation of Kulchytsky in Zerkalo Nedeli (ru version, ua version).

Однако если говорить о гибели людей от голода в Украине в 1933 году, следует называть только одну цифру — 3238 тыс. человек. Или, принимая во внимание неточность статистики, цифры в диапазоне от 3 до 3,5 млн. человек.

Now, ZN is not a peer-reviewed publication and Kulchytsky is not a demographer while he is certainly an academic scholar (a historian.) Also, his calculation is rather simplistic. While Vallin's group takes the same data and makes a forward projection (and backward projection) from the known census results, Kulchytsky uses the same data (as seen from the work) and simply assigns an entire deficit of unaccounted deaths to the 1933 famine (it is all easy to see). The latest observation by me or any other person may not have much value, while the relative authority of ZN vs Population studies and peer-reviewed vs non obviously matters. Now, the question is what do we do with this situation as far as the lead is concerned? Please let me know what you think. --Irpen 04:44, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Since it's not up us to judge which source is "better" as long as they all meet the criteria of reliable sources (which they do), all of the figures should belong (or for the sake of being brief, a range from low to high). The distinction of demographers and historians is important, so perhaps a brief description of the source (i.e., demographers concluded this, historians concluded that) is in order. Saying what politicans claim is also important, as long as their figures aren't cited as fact. I think the way the lead presently looks is generally acceptable, in my opinion.Faustian (talk) 16:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Irpen thanks for bringing this issue up for discussion. I checked the sources above, and there is indeed a puzzling contradiction between the 2002 paper (2.6m) and the (2005) paper (2.2m). In 2005, the authors first state 2.2m then immediately cite the footnote (after the comma) and give 2.6m in the footnote, as if qualifying themselves. Then at the end of the sentence, they also cite the book in French. I found a summary of the book and used Babel Fish to produce a translation. Here is the part concerning the 1930s:

"::Mortality and causes of death in Ukraine at the XXe century by

(Book) INED Collection Books of the INED 2003, 422 p., 25 euros

ISBN: 2733201522

A collective work directed by France Meslé and Jacques Vallin (accompanied by a cédérom)

During the XXe century, the Ukraine was confronted with two types very different of major medical crises. In the years 1930 and 1940 it underwent very heavy losses because of the famine, of the war and the political disturbances. Evaluations of total losses already gave an idea of the width of these catastrophes but they do not distinguish the surmortality from crisis of the deficit of the births nor of the migratory losses. The gathering of all the existing statistical sources (marital status, censuses, enumerations of the people transported and off-set, statistics of Gulag...) provided the base necessary to a patient work of reconstitution, which makes it possible, for the first time, to precisely estimate the hecatomb in terms of a number of deaths and life expectancy.

Thus on a total demographic deficit of 4,6 million people due to the famine and the Stalinist repression of the years 1930, the surmortality of crisis caused with it only 2,6 million deaths, reducing at the height crisis the life expectancy of the men to 7 years and that of the women at 11 years. In the same way, to the total losses of 13,8 million people for the years 1940, corresponds a surmortality of crisis of 7,4 million death being spread out over 7 years with a life expectancy falling at worst the moments to less than 14 years for the men and to 20 years for the women.

Once last these crises of the years 1930 and 1940, the former medical evolution takes again its course and, until the years 1960, mortality moves back deeply. However, as from this time a crisis of a new type occurs causing a durable inversion of the last tendencies : the life expectancy completely ceases increasing among women and year by year strongly moves back at the men. The great fluctuations of the years 1980 and 1990 are only additional misadventures around this new unfavourable general tendency, since they are entirely due initially to the risks of the campaign against alcohol of 1985 then with those of the brutal passage to the market economy. The new retreat of life expectancy noted during all last years of the century indicates on the contrary, that in spite jamming caused by these fluctuations, the tendency remains, long-term, with deterioration."

So what can be concluded? The 2.2m figure is given to the reader on its own, without being substantiated since all the references provided cite the 2.6m figure. It is not clear why that number is used at all ("exceptional mortality" used in 2002, and "excess mortality" used in 2005 are the same thing, right?). Unless someone else has an explanation for this discrepancy, the next best option is to ask another demographer/expert if not the authors themselves. In conclusion, I concur with Faustian that at this point we cite all three (four if counting the French book), and differentiate between them by profession, i.e. who concluded what.--Riurik^(discuss) 20:53, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

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[edit] anti-Ukrainian nationalist

Please refrain from such violations of WP:LIVING and related policies; in any case, who is this "nationalist"? Professor Ryszard Szawłowski, or Władysław Siemaszko/Ewa Siemaszko? The review of their work by professor Szawłowski, which is linked here, is rather positive. The book was reviewed here, the review is mixed and does note a certain bias. But there is nothing to suggest such a strong attacks as you've added to the article.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

It is true of both. The man implies that Ukrainians were even worse than Germans. Here are some quotes from Szawlowski's review[10]: "Secondly, Ukrainian genocide was characterized as a rule by tortures of the utmost barbarity. These reached back to the Cossack traditions of the XVII th and XVIII th centuries (the Khmelnitsky Uprising 12 and the uprising of 1768 called "kolistchyzna"13), with the methods in use at that time - hacking Poles and Jews with axes, throwing wounded victims into wells, sawing people alive, horse-dragging, eye-gouging, pulling out of tongues, and other atrocities 14. Such acts of barbarity were not as a rule employed by the Germans or even the Soviets. Of course there were beatings and frequently bestial cruelty during interrogations 15 or in concentration camps (where this was accompanied' by starvation and backbreaking work, sometimes criminal medical experimenlation in German camps, etc.), but it was not usual for the murder thal took place there to be combined with the cutling off or pulling out of parts of the body, sawing, ripping open of the stomach, disembowelment, and so on 16."

And: "Let us add that on a European scale, as far as dreadful tortures go,the genocide committed by the Ukrainians on the Poles is only comparable, to a certain extent, to the Croatian genocide (by the Ustasi of Ante Pavelic) against the Serbs during World War II from the spring of 1941. " And:

"As for the stance taken by the upper levels of the clergy of the Greek-Catholic Church, which has taken, in the present day, the rather pretentious and ethnocentric name of Byzantine-Ukrainian Church..."

Szawlowski also defends Poliszczuk the non-historian while methodically critiquing actual historians such as Hrycak or the Polish historian Ryszard Torzecki in his article. But Szawlowski himself appears to be a lawyer rather than a historian.Faustian (talk) 21:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Interesting, but unless we can find sources that are critical of Szawloski (or his works), our policies (LIVING, OR) do not support addition of such criticism to the articles. I certainly recognize those names as quite pro-Polish POVs, but that does not merit their censorship. PS. Who is Mykhaylo Koval? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

A more extreme example (Godwin's law be damned, sometimes extreme example are good at illustrating points): do we add links to material written by neo-Nazis to articles about the Holocaust? I did not even censor the link, I merely labelled it appropriately so the reader knows what he or she is getting into when they open the link. But if the choice is to keep the link unlabelled or to remove it, than it should be removed.Faustian (talk) 21:53, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Faustian, please remember that we cannot label people because we dislike them. We need reliable sources to support such labels.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Would a brief example of the author's claims be more acceptable to you than an accurate summary? Should we add "written by a Polish non-historian who also claims that UPA's violence was worse than that of the Nazis or even the Soviets" and the fact that the author systematically disparages actual historians while at the same time applauds non-historians of well-known dubious credentials such as Poliszczuk? A brief description of Szawloski as a Polish nationalist non-historian, or simply not adding the link, seem to be much less clumsy solutions.Faustian (talk) 22:10, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I've stubbed articles on several Polish authors. Perhaps you could do so for the Ukrainian sources; many of them are known as similarly biased as well.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Swawlowski probably doesn't deserve his own article; he doesn't appear to be cited as often as, say, Poliszczuk. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't post at least a brief description of him if we add the link to his work. Which Ukrainian sources comparable to Szawlowski are cited here or elsewhere and how are they cited?Faustian (talk) 22:20, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I can't find enough to stub Ryszard Szawłowski; the most concrete info I can find is that he is a professor emeritus of law of the Polish University Abroad and is also connected with Calgary, Canada. As for the Ukrainian sources, the article is missing most of them. Who is Mykhaylo Koval? Some other academics are cited via secondary sources, which is not the optimal solution.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 03:26, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Nice source Piotrus added indeed. But, Faustian, the best way to go is to remove this stuff from the links list rather than opinionize about it. The source is junk and can be used in the article about authors (if they are deemed notable.) --Irpen 21:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

A good review on the topic. --Irpen 23:15, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks!Faustian (talk) 23:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

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[edit] Happy Easter!

Happy Easter from the homeland! --Irpen 08:05, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! I hope you are enjoying your stay!Faustian (talk) 16:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ukrainians of Brazil

Hello, Faustian!

Thanks for your message. I left a message for Opinoso (talk · contribs) here where I asked him to stop calling editors racist and to discuss the ongiong dispute at the pertinent article. Even though Opinoso is not really participating overly constructively in the talk page discussions and he's making personal attacks, I will still ask you to please be careful about breaching WP:3RR. As it stands right now, both of you have broken the 3 revert rule and are engaged in an all out revert war which, regardless of who is right and who is wrong, is disruptive for Wikipedia. I'm glad that you asked for a third opinion on this and I'm very glad that you're actively explaining your edits on the talk page. If this issue persists, feel free to ask for external help or WP:RFC and most people will be happy to help as long as you're not adding to the problem by edit warring.
Thanks again for your message and feel free to contact me if you have any more questions.

Peace! SWik78 (talk • contribs) 15:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sneaky vandalism

Dear editor your recent actions at Holodomor article: 14:11, 22 May 2008 Faustian (Talk | contribs) (115,319 bytes) (make your edits without adding all the spelling and grammar errors, please) 13:39, 21 May 2008 Faustian (Talk | contribs) (115,319 bytes) (next time, limit your edit to information, rather than changing "sowing" to "sawing" and burying your edit in spelling errors which are vandalism) 13:32, 20 May 2008 Faustian (Talk | contribs) (115,355 bytes) (fixed grammar and spelling) 14:43, 19 May 2008 Faustian (Talk | contribs) (115,355 bytes) (rv insertion of spelling and grammar mistakes by disruptive editor)

described as Sneaky vandalism – see more at WP:Vandalism

Please limit your edits to grammar and spelling - i.e. “the” , “further” “owing”. If you Can't understand passage or statement – fill free to ask at talk page. Best regards Jo0doe (talk) 19:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

As long as you choose to bury your edits in spelling and grammar mistakes your edits will be removed in entirety, if not by me than by someone else. Not everyone likes to play games as you do.Faustian (talk) 19:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Your edits on Ukrainians of Brazil

Please note that I have started a discussion at WP:ANI on your involvement in the recent edit war on the above article. SWik78 (talk • contribs) 14:03, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, although the edit warring appears ot have ended.Faustian (talk) 14:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ukrainians from...

I read most of the discussion. What can I say? I think you are getting an extremely high share of bad luck. After Joe's insults to get that kind of crap is just too much. One must give credit to Joe, actually. That fellow, composed himself somewhat lately, and even at his worst times he at least cited sources (often falsely but sometimes usefully) rather to plainly arguing his views.

This subject though, is much deeper and nuanced though (in general.) Personally, I think that Gogol and Bulgakov did connect to Ukraine very well. That their literature is Russian is without doubt but the analogy of the writers from Ireland who wrote some good chunk of the best English literature comes to mind wrt to the writers who wrote the Russian literature but had clearly a Ukrainian (which was not necessarily Ukrainophile) worldview.

Compare Gogol with his contemporaries! His view of Russia is clearly influenced by his ability to both consider Russia as his country and being able to view at it from outside. (Perhaps this is what Little Russianness means?) No Russian was able to write such a damning satire on their country as Gogol's Revizor or Dead Souls. That he viewed himself an unquestionable patriot of Russia is, actually, not a contradiction.

Same applies to Bulgakov, if you look at his perception of the Russian Revolution. While the writers of the indigenous Russian intelligentsia were musing about the eternal guilt of the Russian elite that it owes to the Russian folk (read Platonov's writing, for example), Bulgakov presents the revolution as simply a scummy Shvonder taking away the flat from Professor Preobrazhensky. To me it seems a not so "Russian" view and the analogy with Gogol comes to mind instantly.

Back to the subject. I will watch the article and thank you for your edits. --Irpen 01:53, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the support! I actually prefer Bulgakov to Gogol (indeed, after Dostoyevsky Bulgakov is my favorite author) and generally agree with your observations. With respect to Gogol's Russian patriotism, I have a very interesting, and favorably reviewed, book by a Polish scholar [[11]] that argues that his loyalty wavered between Poland and Russia (Gogol spent much time abroad in the company of Polish exiles); only his love for Ukraine was consistent throughout his works. According to her, he actually had a lot of difficulty loving the real Russia - his passages so beloved by Russian patriots tended to be either abstract or he transposed Ukrainian experiences and referred to them as "Russian" and in so doing expressed his love for Ukraine in the guise of Russia. Not a mainsttream view of course, but well presented with numerous references. A reviewer from Johns Hopkins University stated that this book was "a major contribution to the history of Russian literary culture. Bojanowska illuminates Gogol's works in a new and interesting way, and makes a convincing case for his identification with Ukraine and his frequent inclination to compare Russia unfavorably to it. Her research is extensive, her argument fresh, stimulating, and controversial. The implications for our understanding of Gogol are enormous." The author does a good job also of showing how mainstream Russian scholarship has marginalized or overlooked those of Gogol's writings that are contradict his image of the loyal Ukrainian-Russian.Faustian (talk) 13:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] May 2008

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Ukrainians of Brazil. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Tiptoety ^talk 14:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. The edit war seems to be over now...Faustian (talk) 14:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Great! Glad to hear it. Let me know if there is anyway I can help. Cheers, Tiptoety ^talk 16:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I started a Vira Vovk article translating sections from the Ukrainian Wikipedia. Please review it. Thanks 13:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citizenship and ethnicity

Two months ago I requested that a citizenship and ethnicity parameters should be added to Template:Infobox Writer. I has been requested again at Template talk:Infobox Writer and I think if several users will support it, It can added. In the case of Ukrainian writers such a Gogol and others this is important. Please join me there Bandurist (talk) 17:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I've done it.Faustian (talk) 19:13, 4 June 2008 (UTC)