Talk:För tapperhet i fält
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[edit] Issues appearing on DYK
I copy the below discussion from DYK to here as it seems a better location to resolve such issues. -- 24.176.214.201 14:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
...that the Swedish military medal För tapperhet i fält and its derivate För tapperhet till sjöss are the only two war decorations that de jure can be awarded to Swedish soldiers for bravery in war, but that they de facto have not been since 1915? (self-nom by) – Elisson • T • C • 21:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)*...that the Swedish military medal För tapperhet i fält and its derivate För tapperhet till sjöss are the only two war decorations that de jure can be awarded to Swedish soldiers for bravery in war, but that they de facto are not?- Note that both bolded links lead to the same article. Don't know how to handle this best, possibly de-link the second one? – Elisson • T • C • 21:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- That assertion is only correct as long as Swedish is not at war with a foreign nation. Recent nominations for the award has been explicitly dismissed by the Swedish government based on the fact that the nation was not at war. Albeit the number of Swedish casualties during the UN Peace mission in the Congo were substantial, the nominated soldiers were awarded other medals. The 1915 award, mentioned in the article, has accordingly been declared as a derogation from the rule and shall not be viewed as a precedent for nominations to come. Odengatan 14:04, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
- I understand your first point, but I don't understand your other points completely. Where has the 1915 medal been declared as a derogation from the rule? It is not the only time the medal has been awarded during peacetime (in Sweden). As said in the article, between 1907 and 1915, five medals were awarded, and at least one more in 1899. And yes, the Congo soldiers were awarded other medals, for example the Order of Vasa (an award for service in the areas of agriculture, mining and commerce...), but there is only one war decoration (two at that time, counting the Order of the Sword), and they were not awarded either of them. Anyway, I've changed the wording slightly, from "that they de facto are not?" to "that they de facto have not been since 1915?". I hope that makes the first point you make redundant. – Elisson • T • C • 15:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
- The rules are quite clear as to the requirement of the nation being at war with an enemy state. All other decisions are to be viewed as derogations. We shall not forget that the King used to have a great personal margin of appreciation in these matters and I understand that very little is known why he awarded the medal to participants in e.g. the Boer War. Anyway, the case of 1915 was referred to as derogation to the rules in the nominations of 1962. Obviously, everybody understood that the nomination would fail if the rules were applied strictly. With the Awards Committee deciding not going against the rules, I don't think that there have even been any more nominations since then. Maybe, you know better? By the way, according to the new hook, there are only two medals that can be awarded for bravery in war... --Odengatan 16:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
- I have not found any requirement specification, so if you have one, I'd be very glad if you could share it with me. One of the sources I've used, Svenska Heraldiska Föreningen, in an article on medals, quite clearly states that Sweden does not have to be at war. I can't interpret their note "till svenska krigsmän som deltagit i utländska krig" ("to Swedish soldiers that have participated in foreign wars") to the gold versions of the medals in any other way. I sadly have not read any of the books written about the Swedes in Congo, and the article in its current state relies only on the short article in Pennan & Svärdet, so I can't comment very much on that specific case. I don't know about any further nominations, but IMHO there are Swedes that have been on international missions that deserve the medal for their actions, in for example Bosnia. Anyway, since the medal has been awarded at least 6 times after Sweden's last involvement in a war, I don't believe those cases can be considered simple "derogations". Another interresting fact is that the lower grades of the Order of the Sword could be awarded "[...] for distinguished acts in wartime...", while the highest grade could be awarded "[...] only when the kingdom is at war or for acts performed during such war". Note the difference between "in wartime" and "when the kingdom is at war". As I have not got any such specification for För tapperhet i fält, I'm not sure how it is worded, but I find it hard to believe that the lower grades of the Order of the Sword could be awarded during peacetime in Sweden, while the För tapperhet i fält could not. Well, there are only two Swedish war decorations that can be awarded to Swedish soldiers for valour in battle, För tapperhet i fält and För tapperhet till sjöss. – Elisson • T • C • 17:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
- The rules are quite clear as to the requirement of the nation being at war with an enemy state. All other decisions are to be viewed as derogations. We shall not forget that the King used to have a great personal margin of appreciation in these matters and I understand that very little is known why he awarded the medal to participants in e.g. the Boer War. Anyway, the case of 1915 was referred to as derogation to the rules in the nominations of 1962. Obviously, everybody understood that the nomination would fail if the rules were applied strictly. With the Awards Committee deciding not going against the rules, I don't think that there have even been any more nominations since then. Maybe, you know better? By the way, according to the new hook, there are only two medals that can be awarded for bravery in war... --Odengatan 16:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
- I understand your first point, but I don't understand your other points completely. Where has the 1915 medal been declared as a derogation from the rule? It is not the only time the medal has been awarded during peacetime (in Sweden). As said in the article, between 1907 and 1915, five medals were awarded, and at least one more in 1899. And yes, the Congo soldiers were awarded other medals, for example the Order of Vasa (an award for service in the areas of agriculture, mining and commerce...), but there is only one war decoration (two at that time, counting the Order of the Sword), and they were not awarded either of them. Anyway, I've changed the wording slightly, from "that they de facto are not?" to "that they de facto have not been since 1915?". I hope that makes the first point you make redundant. – Elisson • T • C • 15:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
- That assertion is only correct as long as Swedish is not at war with a foreign nation. Recent nominations for the award has been explicitly dismissed by the Swedish government based on the fact that the nation was not at war. Albeit the number of Swedish casualties during the UN Peace mission in the Congo were substantial, the nominated soldiers were awarded other medals. The 1915 award, mentioned in the article, has accordingly been declared as a derogation from the rule and shall not be viewed as a precedent for nominations to come. Odengatan 14:04, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
- Note that both bolded links lead to the same article. Don't know how to handle this best, possibly de-link the second one? – Elisson • T • C • 21:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
...that the Swedish military medal För tapperhet i fält (pictured) may only be awarded for bravety when the country is at war, but, was actually, despite Swedish neutrality, also awarded Swedish volunteers in wars such as the Second Boer War? art by User:Johan Elisson, nom by Odengatan 16:57, 22 December 2006 (UTC)- I do not approve of this wording per my above message. I've found no reference that says that Sweden has to be at war for the medal to be awarded. On the contrary, two sources state the opposite. – Elisson • T • C • 17:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
- The Swedish term svensk krigsman (Swedish soldier who has sweared the oath to obey the King and defend his country) is pretty clear about that. And there hasn't been any svenska krigsmän [som deltagit i utländska krig] since 1814! If a Swedish krigsman is fighting a war for another country or under UN flag, his technically no longer a svensk krigsman. Therefore, the 1962 Awards Committee found that the nominee didn't qualify for the medal. I think that the Committee could have decided otherwise, and this only shows us that the medal is probably de facto obsolete. --Odengatan 17:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
- Not entirely true. Some now defunct parts of the Swedish law (for example Förordning (1983:481) om vad som avses med försvarsmakten och krigsman) stated that Swedish soldiers serving on international missions (in the mentioned Förordning, UN-missions specifically) were krigsmän. Aparently, your definition was not used in 1899 or between 1907 and 1915. Sorry, I trust the Swedish Heraldry Association more than I trust you in this case. To get rid if this silly discussion where you have not yet provided one source for your claims, how about the following... – Elisson • T • C • 18:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
- The Swedish term svensk krigsman (Swedish soldier who has sweared the oath to obey the King and defend his country) is pretty clear about that. And there hasn't been any svenska krigsmän [som deltagit i utländska krig] since 1814! If a Swedish krigsman is fighting a war for another country or under UN flag, his technically no longer a svensk krigsman. Therefore, the 1962 Awards Committee found that the nominee didn't qualify for the medal. I think that the Committee could have decided otherwise, and this only shows us that the medal is probably de facto obsolete. --Odengatan 17:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
- I do not approve of this wording per my above message. I've found no reference that says that Sweden has to be at war for the medal to be awarded. On the contrary, two sources state the opposite. – Elisson • T • C • 17:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
- ...that the Swedish military medal För tapperhet i fält (pictured), awarded for valour in the field, was last received by a Swedish gendarme serving in Persia in 1915? – Elisson • T • C • 18:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Article name
The article name may need to be change to be in English similar to Order of the Sword. How about Swedish Medal for Valor? That way, the name of the article covers both medals. -- 24.176.214.201 14:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think we should "make up a name" just because the current title is not in English. Per WP:UE and WP:UCN, we should use the most common English name if such exists, but I have yet to find such a name, and thus at the time, För tapperhet i fält is the most common name, and the current redirect from För tapperhet till sjöss makes any attempt to cover both names in the article title superfluous. – Elisson • T • C • 16:19, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] An obvious question, but...
...what was a Swedish gendarme doing serving in Persia in 1915? Enquiring minds want to know, and can't seem to find an answer anywhere in WP. Shimgray | talk | 22:29, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
- Probably something to write an article about some day. During The Great Game, Russian and British agents undermined the Persian rule, to a degree where most government agencies no longer functioned, including the military and police. In 1910, the British demanded that within three months, the Persian governemnt had to restore security. It was agreed that a European state, accepted by both the UK and Russia should help with officers to create a modern gendarmerie. Italy was asked but said no. Instead, in 1911, Sweden accepted to send officers (strangely enough, Sweden did not, and has never had any gendarmerie of its own...). A total of 38 Swedish soldiers travelled to Persia, some of them along with wives, for a total of around 60 Swedes. They started to build and train an impressive force, by 1914 over 6 000 men (Persians, not Swedes :)), that regained control of the most important routes. When the First World War broke out, it was decided to recall the officers, but they did not return home until 1915. Some even decided to enlist to German units in Persia, and a few officers and policemen stayed there until 1924, when all foreigners were expelled from Persian government agencies. It can be claimed that these Swedish gendarmes are the founders of the modern Iranian police force. A very interresting and unknown story with a lot more interresting facts besides what I've told here. All info from Svenskar i krig 1914–1945 ("Swedes at war[...]") by Lars Gyllenhaal and Lennart Westberg. Recommended reading for everyone that can read Swedish. – Elisson • T • C • 23:45, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
