Talk:Erich Hartmann

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

↓    Skip to table of contents    ↓

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Erich Hartmann article.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability
Archives: 1

	Erich Hartmann has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
Article milestones Date Process Result April 17, 2008 WikiProject peer review Reviewed May 1, 2008 Good article nominee Listed Current Status: Good article

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

Aviation WikiProject     (Rated GA-Class) This article is within the scope of the Aviation WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions. GA This article has been rated as GA-Class on the quality scale. Additional information and associated projects or task forces: This article is currently undergoing an A-Class review. This article is not currently associated with a task force. To tag it for one or more task forces, please add the task force codes from the template instructions to the template call. WikiProject Biography     (Rated GA-Class) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page. Biography Portal GA This article has been rated as GA-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ] This article is supported by the Military work group. WikiProject Germany      (Rated GA-Class) Germany Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks. GA This article has been rated as GA-Class on the quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.) Military history WikiProject     (Rated A-Class) This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions. A This article has been rated as A-Class on the quality scale. Additional information and associated task forces: This article has passed an A-Class review. This article has had a peer review which is now archived. Associated task forces (general topics): Military aviation task force Military biography task force Associated task forces (nations and regions): German military history task force Associated task forces (periods and conflicts): World War II task force

The following user(s) are actively contributing to this article and may be able to help with questions about verification and sources: Dapi89 (talk) – MisterBee1966 (talk) This in no way implies article ownership; all editors are encouraged to contribute.

Archives

20 November 2005 – 23 April 2008

Contents 1 Fighting style 2 Lost in translation 3 Luftwaffe method of calculating victories 4 Kill count 5 Dimitri Khazanov 6 Good work

[edit] Fighting style

I think more citations on this is needed to pass as G.A. Dapi89 (talk) 18:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lost in translation

Can somebody translate & include "Bubi"? Thanx. Trekphiler (talk) 12:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

"Bubi", "Bub" or "Bübchen" is the hypocoristic form of "young boy" in the German language. MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:59, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Congratulations! This article has been promoted to Good Article status. It passed all the criteria; it is excellently written, very well sourced, and has appropriate pictures for the sections. A little bit more, and it will become a Featured Article. Cheers, ṜέđṃάяķvюĨїήīṣŢ ^{Drop me a line}§ 13:21, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Luftwaffe method of calculating victories

No mention of this, but the "score" for Hartmann, and other "aces" has been a subject of controversy for years.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 04:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

The only controversy was on the the soviet side as they didn't want to accept the large number of his victories. They even kept him as POW in jail for a long time for destroying 300+ soviet aircraft so his number can't be so wrong. I remember one soviet "expert" claiming he shot down only 80 aircraft .....--Denniss (talk) 10:51, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Denniss. I think if you do your research properly mrg3105, you'll find that the only official Soviet (note:Soviet) "source" that denies this is Dimitri Khazanov, a dedicated marxist historian. Dapi89 (talk) 19:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

BTW, I noticed a comment left by you on Misterbee 1966 talk page about "you recon Hartmann was innocent of war crimes", and base your assertion that "spent 10 years in the camps for nothing?". Don't be so damned stupid. He was a Luftwaffe fighter pilot and was not responsible for any war crime. You can't be naïve enough to believe there was any truth to that crap. Dapi89 (talk) 19:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kill count

The intro section says that Hartmann scored 345 out of his 352 victories against the Red Air Force, but later on it lists him as having shot down 8 P-51's. Something doesn't add up Masterblooregard (talk) 02:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

You are correct! That's why you should have a look at the footnote. I pointed out that the sources are inconclusive, Most likely 7 versus the USAAF and 345 versus Soviet Air Force is correct, but when reading Toliver and Constable you get the impression that 8 Mustangs is correct. MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dimitri Khazanov

I don't have his book or his article anymore. But I have found some websites about this so called "historian" which expose his claims that Hartmann lied about his kills as a fraud. I have added them under a new section: "kills". Dapi89 (talk) 12:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Good work

GOod work on this article. Here are a few of my comments. Most are minor style points:

• There are one or two "orphan" paragaraphs sitting on lines by themselves that perhaps should be integrated with a bigger block of text to tighten the section- such as :

"Hartmann once famously described dog-fighting as "a waste of time"."

• The "Criticism of Khazanov" footnote perhaps needs a full reference- such as its source and publisher and a date, rather than just a weblink.

• Just for information: on Hartmann's fighting technique- what was his favorite method of approach- get high above allied fighters then dive from superior height, or did he spiral up from the bottom unseen? or a mix?

• Should the Major Günther Capito incident go in the "Summary" section? It seems out of place- too much detail on one incident in a career summary area- and would better fit in the "fighting technique" section, which could mention his aggressive spirit and keeness for the fight, and thus work in the Capito incident as an example. Also his order to Capito was so the Red fighter could be sandwiched. This would allow more fighting technique to be discussed. Mentioning that he never lost a wingmanis finein summary, but the quote on Capito seems out of place as far as career summary. Also in the summary section it might be nice to sum up what made Hartmann stand out, over and against say comparable American or Japanese aces. His kill count was high to be sure, but what made the man special? What can be said about him to truly "sum up" his career? His keen mind? quick reflexes? dedication? technical grasp? bravery? How does he compare with other German aces for example?

These are just a few comments for what they are worth.Enriquecardova (talk) 07:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Khazanov; I didn't put that in because not many people would know who that is.

I think the summary section is right to include Capito. The reason being it was a significant (false as it turned out) achievement of Hartmanns. I believe this is relevent to his career summary and not in the main text - it is almost trivia. I think the quote supports the fact that Erich himself said this was true, and that he had lost a wingman. This gives the author more credibility, as it might seem as if it is another historian out to attack Hartmanns record. I think that the quote regarding dogfighting does need a citation. I will try and find one. The problem with comparisons is that there was so many German aces, and many of them had different styles. I would find this too difficult to do. Critical analysis is rare on this subject, even more so when comparing German pilots to other German pilots. This is something only a expert could do, and even then it is open to bias.

Sorry to be disagreeable. Dapi89 (talk) 18:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)