Talk:Denmark–Norway

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Archive of talk page prior Aug 10th, 2006 (Troll warning)

Contents 1 Wends and Goths 2 King to Denmark and Norway 3 The Norwegian Royal line died out it says. 4 If you have a Union between two kingdoms 5 "Royal part" and map

[edit] Wends and Goths

I venture to reintroduce the term "Goths" in the title of the kings of Denmark-Norway, instead of "Geats". It seems to me that the formula "de Venders og Goters Konge", as used in the official title of the Danish kings until 1972, is more precisely rendered in English as "Wends and Goths". The commonly used Latin translation was "Vandalorum et Gothorum". Most likely, the term "Goters" refers not to the inhabitants of Götaland in Sweden, but to the Goths, the East Germanic tribe that may originally have migrated from Sweden, but during the first centuries inhabited parts of present day Poland and Russia, later to split into the Visigoths and Ostrogoths who established successor states to the Roman Empire. While Denmark-Norway existed, both titles were of course recognised as empty titles of pretension, and the peoples referred to were more or less mythical.

The Swedish kings, by the way, claimed dominion over the same peoples, usually in the opposite order: "Götes och Vendes Konung". When Norway entered into a personal union with Sweden in 1814, the king's Norwegian title was "Konge til Norge og Sverige de Goters og Venders". Roede 18:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It was added after Denmark conquered Gotland Fornadan (t) 20:23, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The title refers to Gotland, not Götaland, despite of the historical connections between Denmark and Västergötland. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 02:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] King to Denmark and Norway

I have found a royal ordinance from 1792 where Christian VII has the title "konge til Danmark og Norge" ("king to Denmark and Norway") [1] and though some of the contributors here would like to see it. Nidator 20:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

You linking to a norwegian homepage. BTW can you see the ship behind, and can you see it has a Danish flag. No union flag. --Arigato1 22:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course not since such a flag didn't exist, as you no doubt already know. This is getting completely and utterly ridiculous (the preceding part of this thread is on Talk:Greenland). The Dannebrog was the symbol of the KING and consequently used by his army / navy in both Denmark, Norway, Schleswig, Holstein etc etc. Use of this flag was restricted to the army / navy / king's presence until c. 1850, during the First Schleswig War, when common people were allowed to use it as well. You still haven't provided any sources to back up your claim that Norway was annexed, except a crappy article written by a BBC journalist. You'll need much better sources than this, and for starters, you still haven't addressed the fact that Professor Knud J.V. Jespersen (Dansk Udenrigspolitiks Historie) and Store Danske Encyklopædi disagree with you or why Frederick III talked about TWO countries in his "Kongelov" rather than one. After all, he ran the place and his word was law. There is a reason why Kongeloven speaks of two nations, why Christian V didn't give the same laws to both Denmark and Norway, and why the Union coat of arms is used almost exclusively on Danish coins but not on Norwegian coins. The list of proof is a lot longer than this. Valentinian ^{T / C} 23:25, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I see the old debate has reopened so I'll quote a bit from Nordens historia by Harald Gustafsson (a Swedish basic university level textbook)

I en omdiskuterad paragraf i Christian III:s handfästing heter det att Norge "hädenefter inte ska vara ellet heta ett eget kungarike, utan vara en del av Danmarks rike". Trots denne är det emellertid klart att de danska kungarna också i fortsättningen betraktade Norge som ett eget kungarike, med egna lagar, egen förvaltning och egna ständermöten.

Fornadan (t) 16:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Before 1537, the union was a personal union where Denmark and Norway had the same king but were seperate countries. Leading up to the reformation in 1537 the archbishop in Trondheim tried to rally resistance to the reformation by attempting to get suficiant support for an independant katholic kingdom of norway. After this the king of denmark declared norway to be not a seperate kingdom, put a province in denmark. Though as it says above in the swedish quote, norway continued to function as a seperate kingdom in most regards. 80.202.50.6 23:48, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Norwegian Royal line died out it says.

So Norway could not be a kingdom.

I have fixed the introducing now. --Arigato1 21:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

You didn't fix it, you messed it up. In medieval and renaissance law, the same person could easily hold several titles. E.g. the house of Habsburg were both Dukes of Austria, Kings of Bohemnia and Kings of Hungary = The same person holding and using several titles. If you had actually read Kongeloven, or books on medieval and renaissance state systems, you would also be aware of this. E.g. Frederick III of Denmark and Norway stressed very strongly that he had TWO titles. So did Christian IV. Stop beating a dead horse. Valentinian ^{T / C} 22:26, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] If you have a Union between two kingdoms

Then you need two monarchs. Right?

Sure, and Idi Amin is the King of Scotland. Fornadan (t) 01:36, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Royal part" and map

The text says that Denmark-Norway included only the "royal part" of the Oldenburgs' lands, excluding the "ducal part", Schleswig and Holstein. But the map of Denmark-Norway in 1780 highlights Schleswig and Holstein along with the rest of the area. john k (talk) 01:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The map is correct and the date seems to have been chosen deliberately. Since 1676, the Danish monarch ruled the counties of Oldenburg and Delmenhorst while Schleswig and Holstein were divided into the Royal portion, the Ducal (Holstein-Gottorp) portion and the jointly-administered areas. Those were the main divisions. Two Several minor duchies also existed in Schleswig; notably the Duchy of Glücksburg and the Duchy of Nordborg. After the Great Northern War with Sweden (1700-1721), king Frederick IV annexed both the Gottorpers' territories in Schleswig and the jointly administered regions of Schleswig. His pretext was that the Danish army had captured documents in the ducal fortress of Tönning documenting that the duke had collaborated with the Swedish army and hence devolted against his vassal lord [the Danish king]. Since Schleswig was a fief of the Danish crown, the king declared it forfit and merged it to his own duchy of Schleswig. But in Holstein both the Danish monarch and the Gottorp duke were vassals of the Holy Roman Emperor which is why the Danish monarch couldn't simply annex these territories as well. So Holstein remained a patchwork of territories with different allegiances. This was ultimately changed by Mageskiftet of 1773. The Gottorp territories in Holstein had at this time passed to Grand Duke Paul of Russia, and Denmark struck a deal with Catharine the Great where the Russians agreed to transfer the terrtories in Holstein to the Danish monarch and renounce all claims to Schleswig. In return, Denmark surrendered Oldenburg and Gottorp Delmenhorst to Grand Duke Paul who in turn surrendered them to Fürst-Bishop Frederick August of Lübeck-Eutin. Denmark also accepted closer links with Russia as part of the deal, which is one of the reasons why Denmark entered the disasterous League of Armed Neutrality during the Napoleonic Wars. The 1773 events were illustrated in a contemporary painting: an allegory of Gottorpish Holstein swears allegiance to the Danish monarch whilst an allegory of the royal part of Holstein watches by and a [Russian] eagle flies away with a shield showing the arms of Oldenburg and Delmenhorst. (Source: Dansk Udenrigspolitiks Historie, vol. III, pp. 345-346.) Valentinian ^{T / C} 01:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

PS: The city of Lübeck owned a few exclaves within Holstein (around Oldenburg in Holstein) but the map is too small to allow a proper depiction of those. They remained under Lübeck's control at the time Denmark lost control of Holstein. Valentinian ^{T / C} 01:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

And here is a map of the pre-1721 situation. Salmon: territories ruled as part of the Kingdom of Denmark (note that the Kingdom had a few exclaves in Western Schleswig), pink: the Danish monarch's territories in Schleswig and Holstein, yellow: territories of the Duke of Holstein-Gottorp, pale green: jointly administered areas (for very long periods of time, effectively under the control of the Danish monarch), darker red: smaller duchies; Nordborg, Sønderborg, Ærø, Glücksburg and Plön, all ruled by cadet branches of the Oldenburg dynasty, blue: territories belonging to Pinneberg, brown: territories belonging to the City of Lübeck. In broad terms: the main difference between the various territories ruled by the Danish monarch were as follows: territories counted as part of the Kingdom of Denmark were ruled by Danish law and administered by administered by the Danish Chancellery, Danish language was used in schools, courts of law and churches, and official positions were filled with graduates of the University of Copenhagen. The arrangement for Norway was similar, except that it was governed by Norwegian law. In contrast, the royal portion of the duchies was administered by the German Chancellary [in Copenhagen], was ruled by respectively German law (Holstein) and the medieval Danish Code of Jutland (Schleswig), the German language was used in courts, schools and churches and official posts were staffed with graduates of the University of Kiel or other German universities. Valentinian ^{T / C} 15:28, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, so what you're saying is that by "ducal part" the text means not that the whole of Schleswig-Holstein was the "ducal part" of the Oldenburg lands, but specifically the "ducal part" of Schleswig-Holstein - i.e. those belonging to the Dukes of Holstein-Gottorp. That makes sense, I guess. But Schleswig and Holstein were always administratively separate from the other parts of Denmark-Norway, no? Particularly Holstein, which was part of the Holy Roman Empire. john k (talk) 15:31, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

1) Indeed. The "ducal part" refers exclusively to those regions of Schleswig and Holstein that were ruled solely by the dukes of Holstein-Gottorp as fiefs of the crowns of respetively Denmark (for Schleswig) and the HRE (for Holstein). The "royal part" is the similar territories ruled by the Danish monarch in the same two provinces (fiefs of respectively himself [Schl.] and the HRE [Holst.]) Both rulers used the same titles in these regions which makes the situation extra complicated. The counties of Oldenburg and Delmenhorst are never counted as belonging to either "part" since they were ruled exclusively by the Danish monarch 1676-1773.

2) Yes, the Danish monarch's share of Schl. and Holst. was administered quite differently from the rest of Denmark-Norway. The administrative language of Denmark and Norway was Danish, administered from the Danish Chancellary and the legal code was Christian V's "Danish Law" and "Norwegian Law". In contrast, Schl. and Holst. were governed from the German Chancellary [same building as the Danish Chancellary], the administrative language on all levels was exclusively German and Christian V's "Danish Law" was never introduced. During the absolutist era, Schleswig and Holstein were effectively administered identically to each other, which is why many Danes until the early 19th century incorrectly would refer to both as "the King's German countries". The entire Helstat construction was cumbersome and remained fundamentally unchanged until Christian VIII's Sprogreskript (Language decree) of 18 May 1840 that changed the administrative language of Danish-speaking Northern Schleswig from German to Danish following a series of petitions from Danish farmers in Northern Schleswig. German nationalists saw this event as a giant provocation, no doubt because it effectively reserved government jobs in Northern Schleswig to Danish-speakers educated at the University of Copenhagen rather than the traditional German-speaking graduates of the University of Kiel. The introduction of Denmark's democratic constitution in 1848 complicated matters further as Danes began demanding the extension of the new constitution to Schleswig to benefit the Danes living there. The German nationalist reply was the rebellion of 1848 that resulted in the 1848-51 war. Valentinian ^{T / C} 18:27, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

So, I guess the question is, should Schleswig, Holstein, Oldenburg, and Delmenhorst be considered part of "Denmark-Norway" or not? They were obviously lands of the Danish king, but is that sufficient? john k (talk) 01:11, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

My take on that would be a yes. In Denmark we normally use the phrase Helstaten (literally: the entire state) but the other term would be considered synonymous. In addition, it makes sense from the administrative point of view. The union's administration was centred around the Danish and German Chancellaries, and the Danish Chancellary (Danske Kancelli) was responsible not only for the internal affairs of Denmark and Norway but it also operated Rentekammeret which served as a finance department for the entire union. The German Chancellary (Tyske Kancelli) was responsible for the domestic affairs within the [royal share of] the duchies, but until 1770 also for the foreign policy of the entire union.[2] after which these tasks were assumed by a new foreign office (Departement for de udenlandske anliggender) also operating for the entire union. The two chancellaries were abolished in 1848-1849. Valentinian ^{T / C} 07:52, 10 April 2008 (UTC)