Talk:Benjamin Disraeli

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• Archive1 (Mainly page-naming disputes)

I've archived the page as there's been little activity here for some time. Mackensen (talk) 20:35, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 contradictions on relationship with Queen Victoria 2 Images 3 Dukedom 4 Disraeli and the famine in India 5 Personal life 6 Should his name-change be mentioned at the beginning? 7 Ancestry 8 Life of the Party, The New Yorker 7/3/06 9 Terminology 10 Homosexual propensity totally ignored 11 References in fiction and other media 12 Good article 13 Requested move 13.1 Survey 13.2 Discussion 14 User:Clio the Muse on WP:RD/H for 30 May 2007 14.1 Title 15 Neutrality tag 16 Duelist? 17 Automatic addition of "class=GA" 18 Cleaning

[edit] contradictions on relationship with Queen Victoria

first the article states:

"In this duel, Disraeli was aided by his warm friendship with Queen Victoria, who came to detest Gladstone during the latter's first premiership in the 1870s."

then later it states:

"Disraeli was elevated to the House of Lords in 1876 when Queen Victoria (who liked Disraeli both personally and politically) made him Earl of Beaconsfield and Viscount Hughenden."

can both these statements be true? 81.100.103.39 22:23, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• I'm afraid I don't see the contradiction--the first statement notes Disraeli's friendship with Victoria, while commenting on her bad relations with Gladstone; the second gives the date of Disraeli's peerage. Mackensen (talk) 01:42, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Is it really necessary to have so many pictures of other people? There's a picture of his father, a picture of Edward Bulwer-Lytton (not even mentioned in the text), a picture of Robert Peel, a picture of John Manners (also not mentioned in the text), a picture of the Earl of Derby, a picture of William Gladstone, a picture of the Marquess of Salisbury, and a picture of the Earl Cairns. This seems excessive, but I'd like to get other people's opinions before I just remove some. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 12:56, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, Manners and Bulwer aren't mentioned in the text because I haven't featured my re-write of the article. I've been working on getting the article up to featured status, and one requirement (generally) for a featured article is an abundance of pictures. Bulwer, Manners, Peel, Gladstone, Salisbury, and Cairns are all pretty important in Disraeli's life, which the article will reflect in the not-to-distant future. Mackensen (talk) 15:44, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, featured articles should have pictures, but in my opinion this is a superabundance of pictures. Even once the text is expanded to mention Bulwer and Manners, I think it's unnecessary to have pictures of everyone Disraeli ever came in contact with. If I were considering this article for featured status, I'd want to see three or four pictures of him and maybe a picture of a place particularly associated with him, not eight pictures of other people in addition to the pictures of him. But that's just my opinion. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 19:55, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Vote to remove pictures -- leave, say, three at the most. -- Writtenonsand 03:17, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Agree - I'd say 3 or 4 pictures & maybe a place associated with him as Angr says. AllanHainey 08:42, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Agree We do not need all the pictures of the other people, except possibly those of Gladstone and Victoria. I also think we need to find a good photograph of Disraeli, in addition to the drawings. Lesgles (talk) 03:39, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I can't agree. All good articles need pictures. The number does depend upon the amount of text around them, but this article does not have too many pictures. I would go further and say it is sensible to add relevant pictures to an article even when it has virtually nothing else there yet, to aid others coming on later who may be able to add the text. Sandpiper 17:23, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dukedom

Is it factual, gentlemen, that he was offered (but declined) a dukedom in 1878? --Anglius 18:10, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, after the Congress of Berlin. Mackensen (talk) 02:02, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I thank you, Mr. Mackensen. --Anglius 04:08, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disraeli and the famine in India

Hello,

Should there not at least be some mention about Disraelis part in the great famine of India?

best regards

I confess I'm not familiar with Disraeli's role (or lack thereof) in an Indian famine. Could you please elaborate? --Mackensen (talk) 00:39, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Personal life

His personal life beyond young adulthood is not treated at all it seems. Was he ever married? Did he ever have children? - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 00:29, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

• He married Mary Anne Lewis. They had no children. Mackensen (talk) 01:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I was wondering that too. Will you add to the article?--A Y Arktos\^talk 01:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Should be there already. Might've gotten dropped when I was re-organizing. I'll see to it. Mackensen (talk) 01:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
      • It also doesn't mention that viscount Hughenden lived at Hughenden Manor, which is now something of a museum to him. Come to that, it doesn't mention the TV program yesterday speculating on whether he was gay, but that might be taking details of his personal life a little too far. Sandpiper 22:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
        • She's mentioned, under "Political career" (because the article is still organized chronologically, not thematically). Mackensen (talk) 22:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
          • The information regarding marriage has not been added. Is there a reason why not? --Matty smith 12:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should his name-change be mentioned at the beginning?

Many other pages about people who have changed their names have "(born X)" after their names. Perhaps it should be "Benjamin Disraeli, 1st Earl of Beaconsfield, KG, PC (born Benjamin D'Israeli 21 December 1804 – died 19 April 1881)"

I'd say not, only because it's uncommon for him to be referred to as D'Israeli. Rather, it was common in his youth, but not during his political career. If it's not mentioned in that section it should be, but I'm not sure it merits mention in the intro. Mackensen (talk) 03:28, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ancestry

Disraeli's ancestry goes beyond claiming to be Spanish–he claimed to descend from the Lara family, a claim thoroughly debunked by Cecil Roth, Lord Blake, and just about everyone else. The matter is complicated yet by itself not hugely important–I'm not sure if it need be covered more than it already is. Mackensen (talk) 02:00, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Life of the Party, The New Yorker 7/3/06

I've just read a great article in this week's New Yorker by Adam Gopnik on Disraeli - very entertaining & enlightening. I'd be interested in anyone's comments on it. I'm new to Mr. Disraeli but have just become a big fan. --Judesobol 14:55, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

If you want to post a link to the New Yorker's on-line edition (assuming they have one & it is there) it may be a useful source for the article. AllanHainey 15:05, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Here's the cite: Gopnik, Adam. "Life of the Party", New Yorker, 2006-07-03.  schi ^talk 17:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology

Given that we in the UK don't use the term 'administration' to refer to the group running the top level of Government, what term should used in the titles 'First Administration' and 'Second Administration'?

"Government" would be better usage, I think. Mackensen (talk) 14:38, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Homosexual propensity totally ignored

There are many pages on the web (nearly 20,000) mentioning Disraeli's clear homosexual propensities, yet not one single word in the Wikipedia entry. What is going on here? Geronimo20 13:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the entry is based on published biographies, and they don't mention anything about homosexuality–his numerous (and well-publicized) affairs with the opposite sex suggest heterosexual behavior, as do his generally distant friendships with other men (save Manners and Lennox). Could you point us in the direction of such references? Mackensen (talk) 14:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

EDIT CONFLICT The number of pages thrown up by a google search is not comparable with proper historical research. None of the biographies I've read has made any mention of or provided any evidence of homosexuality or 'homosexual propensities' (which seems extremely vague & ill-defined in any event) and I can't recognise Disraeli's "clear homosexual propensities" which you refer to. Information should be added to the article on the basis of actual confirmed historical events or previously published speculation/commentary/evidence/theories by those qualified to make such (historians); we shouldn't be adding things just because google provides a lot of unverifiable speculation or attempts by certain groups to claim notable figures as "one of our own".

That said if any of the google links are verifiable, well informed & provide plausible info either supported by other biographies/biographers then we should at least mention the controversy (stating specifically which historian/biographer supports it & whether it is opposed by others). Personally I don't think this is anything other than unjustified and unfounded speculation (& possibly attempts to put a different shading on history) blown up by the powers of google (by comparison "Diana assassination" threw up 845,000 hits). Incidentally I googled for "homosexual propensity Disraeli" and only got 747, "homosexual propensities Disraeli" gave 106. "homosexual Disraeli" gave 25,200 but only the first 5 seemed to have any relevance & all concerned a biography by William Kuhn.

You seem to know more than I on this claim, perhaps you'd care to assess Kuhn's facts & the opinions of other biographers and add a little in the article if it is warranted. AllanHainey 14:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The review in the Times suggests that Kuhn is out on a limb, and based on the evidence quoted I'd have to agree. I'll try to find the book and read his arguments in full, but it sounds like sheer speculation. Mackensen (talk) 15:11, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References in fiction and other media

Perhaps there should be a subject added to the end regarding references to him in various media. Two things come to mind for me: 1 there's an aside in Family Guy where Peter says "now I understand how Benjamin Disraeli fealt", and it cuts to an irate Disraeli saying "you don't even know who I am" to the camera. 2 he's mentioned repeatedly in John Fowles' novel "The French Lutenient's Woman" Snowboardpunk 19:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

• I fail to see how that would be of any value to the article. Mackensen (talk) 19:33, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
• I also fail to see what he has to do with the Cream album Disraeli Gears, you know, you would think such an influential progressive album would be mentioned. -Lukas Dawson

• LOL, the family guy reference is none the less hillarious, but not appropriate for the article.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.2.18 (talk) 14:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article

As an uninvolved editor, I've decided to pass this as a good article. It seems to meet all the criteria set out in WP:WIAGA:

1. Reasonably well written – Check.
2. Factually accurate and verifiable – Check. Sources seem reliable.
3. Broad in its coverage – Extensive coverage of political and literary career and private life, in appropriate context. Check.
4. Neutral – no bias or NPOV violations that I can see. Seems to describe political disputes of that era in an appropriate encyclopedic manner. Check.
5. Stable – no major disruptions except vandalism reversions, which don't count. Check.
6. Images have appropriate licensing info – they're all PD due to age. Check.

Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 04:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

This article has been renamed from Benjamin Disraeli, 1st Earl of Beaconsfield to Benjamin Disraeli as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 08:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Clio the Muse on WP:RD/H for 30 May 2007

There are one or two additional pieces of information that I can add, not, I think, fully covered by the Wikipedia article. Disraeli, the Jewish-born outsider who made his way to the top of the 'greasy pole' of the aristocratic Tory Party, and from thence to the very pinnacle of British politics, has long been viewed as a cynical and unprincipled manipulator: a charlatan in charlatan's clothing. However, an examination of both his published work, and his political conduct, reveals another side to his character altogether.

The first and greatest influence in his life was Isaac Disraeli, his father, who inspired in him a reverance for all of England's ancient institutions-the crown, the landed aristocracy and the established church. These, Disraeli came to believe, were a vital source of both English identity and social cohesion. In 1835 he published a pamphlet entitled Vindication of the English Constitution, intended to show the origins and purpose of the elements that made up the constitution. For Disraeli, the Whigs were parvenus, who came along in the eighteenth century and established an 'oligarchy of self-interest', monopolising government for purely selfish ends. The Tories, in contrast, were the true national party, and the guardians of the real England. Looking at contemporary political life, he concluded that the Parliamentary Reform Act of 1832, introduced by the Whig government, was a piece of political gerrymandering, intended to arrange the electoral systemm in such a way as to perpetuate an 'unholy alliance' between Utilitarian Radicals, Protestant Dissenters and Irish Nationalists.

After he became an MP in 1837 he identified with the nascent Young England movement, developing his ideas still further in a trilogy of novels: Coningsby, Sybil, and Tancred. Sybil, in particular, deals with the so-called 'Condition of England Question'. Published in the same year as Fredrich Engels' Condition of the Working Class in England, it is also a sustained attack on the forms of laissez-faire liberalism favoured by the Whigs, though from a different perspective altogether. Disraeli hearkens back to a mythical Arcadia, in which a paternalist aristocracy and a caring church protected the poor. The Whigs, whose ancestors had plundered the monastic lands, were again to blame for the dissolution of this ideal, organic social order, introducing a rapacious individualism and harsh legislation, such as the Poor Law Amendment Act of 1834. Holding such beliefs, and hating the Whigs, goes much of the way to explaining why Disraeli later became such a bitter critic of Sir Robert Peel, the leader of his own party, after he started to adopt measures favoured by the opposition.

The ideas of Young England continued to inform Disraeli's actions throughout his political life. Although he himself was later to be responsible for a further extension of the franchise in the Second Reform Act, it was fully consistent with his beliefs, reaching beyond a constituency of self-interst, towards a much more widely based electorate. Although not initially successful, it marked the beginning of a process of political engagement between the Conservative Party-as the Tories were now called-and the British working-classes, who had little to gain from unrestrained free market liberalism. In a speech of 1872 Disraeli repeated the assertion that he had made in 1867 that there was a natural affinity between the Conservatives and the working class, on the basis of shared 'national principles.' The working classes, as he put it, 'were English to the core' and proud of their country. In the Parliamentary election of 1874 the Conservative Party, under Disraeli's leadership, began to move out of its traditional rural heartlands into the urban areas, particularly in London and Lancashire. It is perhaps due to Disraeli, more than any single man, that the working-class in Britain were well on the way to becoming the most 'bourgeois' in Europe, to the dismay of Marx and Lenin. Clio the Muse 01:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title

Anyone know why he became Earl of Beaconsfield, rather than Earl of Hughenden? I'm assuming he couldn't become Earl of Wycombe as the Marquess of Lansdowne was already. I just can't find any connection with Beaconsfield at all. Petsco 08:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Could it be related to the fact that he refused to accept a title himself, so the it was offered to his wife?--Crestville 10:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

His wife became Viscountess Beaconsfield earlier, yes, but he was later Earl of Beaconsfield in his own right. The real question is why his wife didn't become Viscountess Hughenden. To that I don't have an answer. Mackensen (talk) 16:40, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality tag

I don't question that Disraeli was a good and great man, although as an American I know very little about him. However he was a politician. I'm sure that not everyone agreed with his politics. There must have been another side. So why is everything in the article positive towards him? Where is the criticism section? Another point: His example encouraged Jews to assimilate into gentile society, and perhaps even to convert to Christianity. This is a very controversial thing. Yet this issue is not mentioned in the article. If you like, compare the article on Jews for Jesus. I came here after using Disraeli as an example there. Steve Dufour 11:37, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

• I don't see the inclusion of a stand-alone "criticism" section as encyclopedic or useful. Opposition to his policies is noted where appropriate as is the general mistrust which surrounded him. Do you have a specific incident in mind that is not accorded adequate coverage. Concerning Disraeli's faith, he was in many ways an exceptional figure--his father was an agnostic, who withdrew from the synagogue over a financial dispute. Disraeli's views on Judaism and Christianity were bizarre and ran counter to the usual example of quiet assimilation. I haven't seen sources suggesting that Disraeli's example encouraged others; by all means if you've seen such material bring it forward. Mackensen (talk) 18:56, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I found the article quite interesting. Thanks for your work on it. I will take off the neutrality tag. I was too quick putting it on after just skimming through the article. I see now that the other side is presented. I was reacting to extreme hostility towards converts in the other article, which was probably a violation of the point policy on my part. Cheers. Steve Dufour 20:00, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Nah, no worries (and a pity you're not disputing notability--that would have been an interesting meta-discussion). I might wander over to Jews for Jesus to see what's going on there. Best, Mackensen (talk) 20:11, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Whatever else Disraeli was, he was certainly notable. Steve Dufour 20:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Duelist?

Had Disraeli been to the field? I believe, at 31 years old, in 1835 he challenged the 60 year old Daniel O'Connell, who had dueled and killed a man, but refused all challenges anon, including Disraeli's. O'Connell's son, Malcolm, also an experienced duelist, refused to take up the challenge. Was Benjamin fierce or lucky?Bostoneire 14:47, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• Morgan O'Connell (not Malcolm) refused to fight on behalf of his father, so Disraeli insulted Morgan directly. Things got fairly far along--Disraeli had selected Henry Baillie to be his second. From what I recall, the sheriff got wind of the affair and Disraeli was bound over to keep the peace. Mackensen (talk) 16:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your correction, righty given, and input. Yet my question as to Disraeli's dueling experience remains unanswered. Was he the warrior who, unlike the O'Connell's, had not been in battle? Bostoneire (talk) 16:25, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Automatic addition of "class=GA"

A bot has added class=GA to the WikiProject banners on this page, as it's listed as a good article. If you see a mistake, please revert, and leave a note on the bot's talk page. Thanks, _BOT Giggabot (talk) 04:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleaning

I removed the antisemitic tirade somebody had added in the beginning of the article.

Jukka Kemppinen Porf., Finland —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jukke (talk • contribs) 09:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)