Talk:Super Bowl VII

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Contents 1 Correction: National Anthem performers; details about halftime program 2 Trivia: Kiick fumble 3 Garo's Gaffe 4 Starting Lineups

[edit] Correction: National Anthem performers; details about halftime program

Euphjoe (talk) 14:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
This article incorectly identifies Andy Williams as the performer of the National Anthem at Super Bowl VII with the Little Angels Choir. Andy Williams sang the last two songs of the halftime show, but did not sing in appear in the pregame. The National Anthem was sung by the Little Angels choir, accompanied by the University of Michigan Marching Band.
Other music performed in the pregame ceremonies by the Michigan Band included:
The M Fanfare
The Victors March
Salute to the AFC and NFC
California Here I Come/California Dreaming
Apollo Fanfare/Beyond the Blue Horizon

The University of Michigan Band, conducted by Professor George Cavender, was the featured entertainment in a halftime show entitled "Happiness Is." All music was arranged by Jerry Bilik.
The music included the following:
Happiness Is Fanfare (not televised)
Joy to the World (not televised) Put on a Happy Face (happy face formation)
The Raven Speaks/Woodchoppers Ball, featuring Woody Herman (saxophone formation)
Swing March (NFL formation)
La Virgin de la Macarena (steer's head formation)
America Medley (USA outline formation)
Marmalade Molasses and Honey, featuring Andy Williams (hearts formation)
People, featuring Andy Williams (Love formation)
Contrary to information provided by the NFL, Super Bowl VII was the first Super Bowl that the Michigan Band performed at. It has been stated that the University of Arizona and University of Michigan bands performed at Super Bowl I in 1967, but the Michigan band did not play at Super Bowl I.
I was a member of the University of Michigan band and played at Super Bowl VII. There are also videos of the band's performances at Super Bowl VII on youtube.
Before Andy Williams came on board to sing at the Super Bowl VII halftime, the original singer was scheduled to be Sammy Davis, Jr. Before traveling to Los Angeles, the Michigan Band rehearsed an arrangement of the Sammy Davis song "Candy Man."

Seems that this article is using http://www.nfl.com/superbowl/history/entertainment which can be viewed by some as a a reliable, published source since it is from the NFL's official website. Unfortunately, since you cannot cite your own personal eyewitness account, you may need to find another different source to cite. Cheers. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 15:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I did not intend to say that the NFL's information is "unreliable," but did want to point out some facts that I felt the NFL may have overlooked. Yes, I relied on my personal eyewitness account. There is also video evidence. Search youtube for "Super Bowl VII pregame ceremonies, part 3 of 3" to see the video of the National Anthem.

15.219.153.74 (talk) 15:04, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia: Kiick fumble

Here's what I added to the Trivia section, and then removed when challenged:65tosspowertrap 18:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

"It is not well known, and not reflected in the official game statistics or play-by-play, but Jim Kiick fumbled on the Dolphin's second-to-last possesion, three plays before Yepremian's infamous pass. With the ball at the Washington 37 yard line, Kiick ran up the middle. As he was being tackled by Jack Pardee, the ball was stripped by Brig Owens. Kiick managed to fall on it before any Redskin could recover it. A careful viewing of the NFL Films Super Bowl VII DVD shows this to be the case. (Caution: the DVD shows this play out of sequence, as if it occurred on the Dolphin's last possession.)[1] Listen carefully, and you can hear someone, presumably one the Redskins, say "fumble!." The irony, considering what happened three plays later, is that it might have been preferable from the Dolphin's point of view if Washington had recovered Kiick's fumble."

[1]Super Bowl I-X Collector's Set, Disc 4, Super Bowl VII, 0:41:41 elapsed time. NFL Productions, LLC, 2003

My claims that Kiick fumbled, and that it is shown out of sequence, are based on my own viewing of the DVD, and on the game play-by-play. Maybe this qualifies as "personal research," but it is verifiable by anyone carefully watching the DVD. I can't believe I'm the only person to notice this. However, if you feel it is inappropriate to make this fumble claim in this Wikipedia article, then perhaps it should be removed.65tosspowertrap 00:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I can't prove that it should have been scored a fumble; that's a valid criticism. I do see Owens strip the ball from Kiick, but because of the camera angle, what happens to the ball after that is unclear, except that evidently Kiick fell on it. I do hear someone say "Fumble!" and then someone, possibly Pardee (watch his head) says "Shit!" It's possible that it happened so fast only the players in the immediate area of the tackle saw it. But if Kiick lost possession of the ball prior to the whistle, isn't it a fumble? As for supplying a citation to back up my claim, that would simply be the DVD itself, wouldn't it?.

My claim that the play is shown out of sequence is based on the official play-by-play; Kiick was tackled by Owens, not Pardee, on Miami's last possession.65tosspowertrap 01:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:NFL_Films"

• It seems like that you are making a claim based more on your interpretation about what you saw during that sequence on the DVD. Without any evidence that this claim of yours has also been previously published by another reliable source, this falls under the definition of original research, which is not allowed on Wikipedia. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 22:34, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone have any information on a possible Kiick fumble in Super Bowl VII? Thanks,65tosspowertrap 18:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I saw this discussion and thought that the best way to investigate this would be to view the actual game tape (the NBC broadcast), which I possess. Having done so, I can state that the play in question did indeed take place during the Dolphins' second-to-last drive (prior to Garo's Gaffe), not their last drive. It is also clear to me that Brig Owens stripped the ball from Kiick, as the official retrieved the ball from Owens, not from Kiick, at the end of the play. However, it is also apparent that Kiick's knee was on the ground before Owens stripped the ball (this is also not obvious from the NFL Films camera angle). The official, in fact, pointed to the ground indicating to Owens that Kiick was down, and although Pardee meekly made the "First Down" gesture in an effort to persuade the official, it is clear that the official call was that Kiick was down prior to the strip. Even Curt Gowdy made no mention of a possible fumble. JohnnyThrowback 22:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)JohnnyThrowback

Thanks for your input. It never occurred to me that Kiick's knee might be on the ground. It certainly doesn't appear so in the NFL Films production, but you really can't tell; it must have been close. (I wonder if NFL Films deliberately cropped the shot so you couldn't tell, for dramatic effect. Or perhaps to help disguise the fact that the play occurred on the Dolphins' second-to-last possession, not their last possession, as they imply. There are other examples of deception in other NFL Films productions.)

How do you happen to possess the actual NBC broadcast? Those must be very rare and hard (or nearly impossible) to obtain. I would love to have a copy. The NFL Films productions are deceptive and can't be trusted.65tosspowertrap 13:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Send me an email via my user talk page and I'll let you know :) JohnnyThrowback 17:52, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Garo's Gaffe

I just wanted to point out that Garo's play was significant enough IMO to have a title on that section. I mean, it was Washington's only score, it is one of the most famous bloopers in Super Bowl history (Leon Lett's fumble being a distant second), and it gave the kicker more celebrity than Norwood since it didn't cost their team the game. Norwood's miss has it's own second level section, (AND it's own separate article), While Leon Lett has a whole section on his page devoted to his two big gaffes. I won't add it back, but I figure the comment should be made, and to let others weigh in on the final decision. CodeCarpenter 14:05, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Yepremian's fumble is universally known as "Garo's Gaffe." It is one of the most famous Super Bowl plays. Google "Garo's Gaffe." What comes up first? This article. Without a "Garo's Gaffe" section heading, the searcher will have to read almost the entire article to find the appropriate section. I think a "Garo's Gaffe" heading is appropriate. 65tosspowertrap 14:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

The play certainly was significant, but it doesn't need it's own title in the summery section. Currently, no other single play has it's own title in ANY Super Bowl article game summery, not even the Norwood incedent. Like I said, Garo's Gaffe was just part of the game, and while it does warrant a detailed description (which it has), it does not warrent contradicting the formula that is used for every wikipedia Super Bowl article. Furhtermore, the incedent is also mensioned in the opening paragraph, so I don't think anyone is going to have a hard time finding it. Chainclaw 15:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I am convinced. I went through the 41 SBs, and "The Guarantee" is the only specific item title, and it is in the Pre-Game, not in the Game Summary. Garo's page has a detail about the play including a title, but if throwing 5 TDs in one quarter does not have it's own title, then this play does not need one either. IMO of course... CodeCarpenter 18:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks like Chainclaw is right. 65tosspowertrap 13:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Starting Lineups

This article needs the Starting Lineups table. 65tosspowertrap 13:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)