Talk:Avro Lancaster

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Avro Lancaster is included in the 2007 Wikipedia for Schools, or is a candidate for inclusion in future versions. Please maintain high quality standards, and make an extra effort to include free images, because non-free images cannot be used on the CDs.

Avro Lancaster has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Contents 1 Stub 2 Machine guns 3 Doubly hampered? 4 Oh really? 5 Contextual background? 6 Soviet Lancasters 7 Initial design request. 8 Avro Lancaster Image Gallery 9 Survivors - new article? 10 Mark designations 11 VC Awards, Leonard Cheshire 12 Where to next?

[edit] Stub

I'll flesh this stub out tonight when I have reference books handy. Unless Maurie beats me to it, of course.

[edit] Machine guns

Somebody wrote the Lancaster has 10 machine guns, but I count only 8. Feel free to change it back if someone knows better. DJ Clayworth 19:13, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Some versions did carry 10 machine guns (.303 and .50 cal Brownings mix) in four turrets. Some only had three turrets (and some only two) with .303s only. Moriori 19:48, Feb 12, 2004 (UTC)

The armament to some extent depends on when during the war you are talking about. The Lancaster, (and Halifax) as-designed, had a mid-under 'turret' * with two .303 Brownings, (the Stirling had a retractable 'dustbin' type) but as the aircraft was subsequently used mostly at night the 'turret' was at first removed and later not fitted at the factory, the aperture being faired-over - the turret was discontinued because the optical sighting system (designed for daytime use) was unusable at night, it not being possible to see anything through it making the turret just useless weight (this was also why RAF 100 Group special-duties B-17 Flying Fortresses had the Sperry ball turrets removed, as the visibility from the turret at night was almost nil) The mounting position was later used to fit the H2S radar scanner.

* This 'turret' should not be confused with the guns fitted on some squadrons later in the war to deal with the threat of the Schräge Musik attacks - these were usually fitted in apertures cut in the fuselage floor and used the normal sights fitted to the gun, and consequently had a much better view in low light conditions.

BTW, the 14,000lb 'normal' bomb load figure usually given is a 'brochure' one for an aircraft with the mid-under turret and all the designed armour fitted. When the turret was deleted and most of the armour removed * (the Luftwaffe night fighters were using such heavy cannon armament by this time that the additional armour was again, just useless weight) this allowed the bomb load to be increased. During the course of the war the Maximum Take-Off Weight was increased to first 63,000lb, then 65,000lb, and by 1943/4 the aircraft's MTOW had been further increased to 68,000lb and the maximum bomb load was by then 18,000lb, which accounts for this figure sometimes being given. Incidentley, this is why Harris spoke of (paraphrase) 'continuingly increasing the load without breaking the camel's back' of the Lancaster.

(Grand Slam Lancasters were loaded to 72,000lb and had to be flown 'carefully' until the load had gone)

* The only armour that was retained was the armour plate directly behind the pilot's seat and the armoured doors in the fuselage.

Ian Dunster 14:24, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Doubly hampered?

It says this: "The resultant aircraft was the Avro Manchester, a disappointing aircraft that was doubly hampered by the unreliable engines"

I hate to nitpick (well, alright, I don't really) but if the duff engines are the first - er - hamperation, what's the other one? I mean I do understand it was hampered by engine reliability but I don't see how it got doubly hampered. Can someone please enlighten me? Otherwise I think it needs either an explanation of what the other hamperoidality is, or the "doubly" taking out. Nevilley 16:24, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

PS The first person to say "ah well you see it was doubly hampered 'cos it had two engines" gets a slap round the head for being silly. Ow!

At the risk of a slap, I think the problem was that it had two engines rather than four, even if the Lancaster's four were individually less powerful--Doctormonkey 19:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, but, with the greatest respect, the point to which this query from 24/4/04 refers was fixed by an edit on 13/4/05, and the question of the "double hamperation" was never resolved and is not by this edit on 2/12/06. 82.45.248.177 01:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

At the risk of a slap, I have to agree with Doctormonkey, more or less. The hamperations (ouch) were 2 engines that weren't sufficient for the task, besides being devilishly unreliable, where the Lanc had 4 less-powerful (but more total than 2 Manchester) & reliable. Trekphiler 15:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oh really?

"Unlike the Halifax, it was not used during the war for duties other than bombing."

I took this line out as I recently seen a programme on BBC that stated Lancasters took part in Operation Manna where food was dropped in Holland for the civilian population, and footage proved that they did.Escobar600ie 19:18, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I think what the writer meant was that unlike the Stirling and Halifax there was no cargo/transport version of the Lancaster. The Stirling and Halifax were both produced in cargo versions (the Halifax transport was called the Halton) and both were also used as glider tugs, but the Lancaster was only used for the purposes of bombing - I suppose if one wants to be pedantic one could say that dropping food to the Dutch in Operation Manna was a form of bombing, albeit a friendly one! Ian Dunster 13:52, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, no. The Lancastrian (Avro 691) originated in Canada (yay!) in 1942. It was used as a VIP transport (by Churchill, as I recall). I should also mention Stirling, Halifax, Hampden, & Lanc were all used for mining ("Gardening"). Trekphiler 15:58 & 16:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contextual background?

The article could really do with a little more contextual analysis:- how it compared to other heavy bombers of the time, its relative effectiveness, strengths, weaknesses in campaigns etc etc.Simmyymmis 02:36, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Soviet Lancasters

Found this web page: [1] with a story about two repaired Lancs serving with the Soviet Union after Operation Paravane. Also a mention in the text for Lancasters: [2]. Anyone confirm this? Folks at 137 10:01, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Info confirmed. I've read that article and saw photos. Vladimir Kotielnikov is well known researcher and whole story was confirmed by another researcher - Carl-Fredrik Geust - in his book from "Red Stars" series published by Apali Oy. Piotr Mikołajski 02:06, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Initial design request.

I'm a bit confused: the article states that the origins of the Lancaster lie in the design for a twin-engined heavy bomber submitted in response to a request for a twin-engined medium bomber? Did someone at Avro not understand what was wanted? I think a little tweaking is in order here. Red Sunset 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Avro Lancaster Image Gallery

Hello,

I have started doing an aircraft image gallery(hobby project) and I think it will be useful to add a link to it here. I have tried this in the past but I broke some rules (you are not allowed to add links to your own website) so it was deleted by another user (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:TAG.Odessa#Why_are_you_deleting_the_external_links.3F).

The solution, according to the 'external links' rules : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:EL#Advertising_and_conflicts_of_interest is to "please consider mentioning it on the talk page and let neutral and independent Wikipedia editors decide whether to add it".

Avro Lancaster : http://www.aircraft-list.com/db/Avro_Lancaster/26/

So please look over that page and if you think it is useful then add it, if not then just ignore this message.

Thanks

Best wishes

Nekhbet 09:03, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survivors - new article?

Hi all,

What does everyone think about moving the "Survivors" section to a completely new article? I see in the peer review that in its current form it was thought to make the article unbalanced. Replacing it with a short section such as "there are around 17 known Lancaster survivors. For more details see..." would seem to be a good solution. EddieWalters 19:26, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Cut down the section, but that's not the real problem with this article- it needs more sourced information. I would leave the section as is since there are only two flying Lancasters and a dozen and a half more survivors. Bzuk 20:24 23 February 2007 (UTC).

There are actually (depending on how you count it!) up to 26 surviving Lancasters. This includes a few aircraft that are just parts (ranging from cockpit sections that are on display to aircraft that are just components - but there are around 17 complete airframes. The section as it is at the moment is very incomplete. See http://www.warbirdregistry.org/lancregistry/lancregistry.html for a list of surviving Lancs.EddieWalters 23:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree there is too much information on survivors with 900 words out of approximately 3000 words devoted to a small number of aircraft. My contention is that for a influential aircraft such as the Lancaster, there should be a larger, more referenced article, much akin to the P-51 and P-38 articles. How about setting about to increase the article to a major work, and still chop down the Lancaster survivor section. Bzuk 23:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

What is most unbalanced, I feel, is that the two remaining flying Lancasters - one of which has just flown at a low altitude over my house, which is why I'm looking on here! - have very few details compared to those that are not flying. I think a seperate article would be a good idea, particularly if it could include more details about the two flying aircraft. Tim (Xevious) 14:48, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mark designations

I just edited the mark designations to "B.I" etc, and I have just realised I was incorrect! While those are commonly used designations, two reliable sources refer to them as "Mk" or "Mark" - those sources being the upper left hand corner of Avro factory drawings (eg D1629 - "GA of Fuselage" has "Manchester", followed by "Lancaster Mk I & II"), and the Air Ministry Pilot's notes. Sorry for the erroneous "correction".EddieWalters 22:53, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] VC Awards, Leonard Cheshire

I've added Cheshire to the list. However, I acknowledge that Cheshire did not specifically win his VC for "actions while flying the aircraft". Rather, his citation refers to his prolonged courage in the face of the enemy. Yet I think he should be included on the list, since he was famously associated with the Lancaster, and flew an extraordinary number of sorties in the aircraft, thereby earning his VC. --Corinthian 15:37, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where to next?

Hi all,

Just a few idle thoughts on areas that could be improved in this article. I suggest that the operational history could be expanded somewhat - it seems remarkably short. Perhaps adding in sub-sections giving a run down of the Lancaster's role in the major phases of the Bomber Command campaign.

Also, perhaps there should be a "notable crewmembers" section. Offhand I can't think of any well known people who were Lancaster crewmembers, but there must be quite a list! Another section that could be added is "notable Lancasters" - eg 100+ ops aircraft, ED932 (Gibson's aircraft on the Dams raid), etc.

I will try and help develop the article, but I just thought it might be worth putting a few ideas out there and seeing what others thought? Any other ideas on this? I think the survivors section is now reasonably complete, and I don't want to expand any further as I think it will lead to an unbalanced article.

EddieWalters (talk) 02:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I concur that the article can use some detail in some sections, especially in the "Operational history" and definitely agree that the "Survivors" section is long enough (maybe too long already but...). As to new areas to explore, a brief (I did say brief) mention of the many one-offs and special test aircraft may be appropriate. FIW Bzuk (talk) 02:27, 19 November 2007 (UTC).

is it me or is there no mention in the survivors section of the completely rebuilt Avro Lancaster MkVII NX611 at The East Kirby Aviation Heritage Centre, Lincolnshire, Uk http://www.lincsaviation.co.uk/  ? 82.21.206.85 (talk) 20:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I presume you have read the bit under Surviving aircraft under the heading Lancaster B VII NX611 Just Jane ! MilborneOne (talk) 22:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I have a comment about the last paragraph of the first section. It's written that Alex Henshaw is the only person known to have barrel rolled a Lancaster and that that is "a feat considered almost impossible because of the slow speed of the aircraft." I have a couple of comments. First, I should let you know that I am a pilot and have a commercial pilot's license, though that is not what I do for a living. Among my flying experiences I have had aerobatic instruction and have several hundred hours flying aerobatics and I've owned an aerobatic aircraft. One of the things about a barrel roll is that one can do it in almost any aircraft. It can be done so that it places very little stress on the airframe - less even than a 60 degree banked turn. It can be done without the passengers noticing if they do not happen to be looking out of the window. One can barrel roll very slow and underpowered aircraft with the right technique. Piper Cubs and Boeing 707s can be barrel rolled and there is plenty of documentary evidence that it has been done. That does not mean it's advisable. If you mess it up, you may put a lot of stress on the airframe (beyond what it can take) recovering from the resulting dive or spin. The data panel in the article says that the Lancaster's maximum speed was 240 knots - that is not slow. Ample to barrel roll it. I would be happy to try to barrel roll a Lancaster. So I disagree with the comment that it is a "feat considered almost impossible." My other objection is to the part of the sentence that claims Alex Henshaw is the only person known to have done it. I knew well a former Lancaster pilot. He was still in the Royal Air Force when I first met him. He knew my family for years. He told me that he had barrel rolled a Lancaster with his crew in it and that half of the crew did not notice but that one of those who had had been very angry about it. He flew 35 missions in WW2 and was awarded the DFC. He was a modest man. The way in which he told me about the barrel roll, and some of the details in his story, coupled with my knowledge of aerobatics and aircraft make me inclined to believe that the man I knew had barrel rolled a Lancaster and that probably other pilots did too. All in all, I think it would be best if that sentence were removed, both because I do not think it is "impossible" to barrel roll a Lancaster, and because I do not think Henshaw was the only person to do so.Leonidas2008 (talk) 23:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC)Leonidas2008

Its sufficient that the statement is sourced and cited. I would say though that this fact is not particulary relelvant to the article. Relevant to Henshaws article but not to service operations of the Lanc. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:00, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with GraemeLeggett: it is not particularly relevant and that is a good enough reason to remove it. Leonidas2008 (talk) 17:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)