Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive401

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Enough. The civility issues are not going to require admin action. I suggest filing a RFC if you're actually concerned about getting some input into this. Take the content dispute to the content pages. --Haemo (talk) 05:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Resolved.

I ran across User:Moreschi with this diff, where he blatantly violates Wikipedia:CIVIL#Engaging_in_incivility. "Judgmental tone in edit summaries ("snipped rambling crap") or talk page posts ("that's the stupidest thing I've ever seen")."

I saw that many more of his edits were in violation of WP:CIVIL such as here, here,

I attempted to bring his attention to the policy on his talk page, but his response was to pretend that he does not have to abide by this policy, made clear in the edit summary and gives the actual posted response the feel of a threat. More startlingly, it appears that he is making administrative actions [16] [17] without showing that on the user page or being in such a category. If this is an administrator acting like this, much more civility should be used by an admin at all times. If an admin can discuss this with him, it would be much appreciated. KV(Talk) 17:14, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

While there certainly has been a poor demonstration of civility here, I will point out that admins do not need to mark ourselves in special ways. It really does reflect poorly on Wikipedia's public image when admins don't act in a civil fashion. _(1 == 2)^Until 17:19, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Since your comment seems to have been dismissed as resulting from some sort of involvement, I have made an comment as an uninvolved person on the users talk page. _(1 == 2)^Until 17:24, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I didn't phrase that clearly. It's not worse that he does not display adminship, but that it's an admin being uncivil. KV(Talk) 17:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you btw. KV(Talk) 17:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

• I think Moreschi's edits were right though. I've tagged that article, it needs a serious overhaul. Black Kite 18:18, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree the edits were correct. _(1 == 2)^Until 18:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

See also WP:FTN#New project on hermetism. --Relata refero (disp.) 18:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Moreschi's being correct doesn't mean he ought to get away with being incivil. Neıl ☎ 18:51, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it would be more convenient for us all if he didn't say what we were thinking. --Relata refero (disp.) 19:18, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

No, it would be more convenient for us all if he said it courteously. It isn't difficult. Neıl ☎ 20:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course being correct does not allow this user to be uncivil. The user has been told just that, and unless there are further problems I think this is resolved. _(1 == 2)^Until 19:22, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree the discussion is resolved. John Carter (talk) 19:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The resolved tag on this says "try to be correct and politically correct, in future, please", but "civility" is not the same as "political correctness". Is there a reason why "civil" couldn't have been used? Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ^{(talk / cont)} 19:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Because some of us don't find Moreschi's edit summary uncivil. --Akhilleus (talk) 21:43, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

But if that's the case, it's not resolved. If it's marked "resolved" then it has reached a resolution, in which case a carping comment is not called for. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ^{(talk / cont)} 01:21, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I did correct it two edits after you complained, you know. Its resolved to the degree that Moreschi was reminded not to do it again. Please see the relevant edit comment as I changed it. --Relata refero (disp.) 18:45, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Second Issue

It appear my worries that the dismissal was a threat (Wikipedia:Harassment#Threats) was not misplaced. Soon afterwards, there was a complete onslaught of what I was working on by those working at Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard. Though unlikely to be intentional to be worked this way, the board is working as an informal platform for meat puppetry. Those who frequent the page decided that Hermetic thought in general is a fringe theory and so only the very minimal should be included in Wikipedia and coverage of the subject should be scaled back rather than expanded. Like minds gather there intending to scale back coverage of subjects they consider fringe, even in articles exclusively about them. I want to stress that I am not accusing any user here of concerted meat puppetry, just pointing out that the subsequent actions were effectively the same as meatpuppetry. Concern was displayed over at Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#New_project_on_hermetism that a project, of which I am the founder and unfortunately still sole member, would be a threat because it is trying to expand the material. As a result, we have multiple users engaging in what can be called Wikistalking. It started with very reasonable edits, such as this, this, and I can certainly see even this NPOV tagging as productive as the article did and still does need a lot of work.

Not that I disagree with him, but we have the same Civility problem popping up here from User:Moreschi, and though I am looking for time to rewrite the section so it does not rely upon the questionable claims of Manly P Hall, which was discussed in the prior deletion discussion, this and this show the same malicious tone. Then he decides to delete uncontroversial material, that has already been gone through by many critics and discussed, claiming the source to be unreliable here. He does not explain how the source is unreliable, and I questioned him on it in Talk:Hermetism#NPOV_tag only to get a statement that completely ignores a large section of Hermetic belief today, which stems from those who read that exact text, which is why it was considered a reliable source for that subject in particular the last time. He also suggests that certain people (which I certainly took to imply me) don't belong on Wikipedia at all. There's many more similar edits by him following that, which one patroller identified as vandalism because of the tone and rapid deletion without discussion.

We also have actions by User:Dbachmann (signs "dab") which were to propose merge and then decide that it is immediately necessary because of an outdated deletion discussion, and does it himself. Of course, the old deletion discussion is noneffective here seeing as it was at the urging of a friend and two sock masters User:Hanuman Das and User:999 who were both banned for sockpuppetry. The third, my friend, User:SynergeticMaggot is the one who recreated the page and dragged it on, telling me to just fix it up, once I found the necessary sources to show that Hermetism was not a term made up by Manly P Hall and peer-reviewed academic sources printed by a University Press at that. Unfortunately, he cannot explain this further currently as he lost his working computer a few days ago, and perhaps the only time we'd be on the same side of a debate on these issues he's muted by fate. However, I will say that when I discussed it with him he did say that the prior AfD was of no consequence at this point. Of course, this is not the only brash action by this user, who decided to edit Hermeticism as well, reverting the page back from before I added a template and rewrote the intro using that university source to cite the difference between the two theories, and reverted to an edit that was in violation of the MOS by a new user who simply didn't know better, and reverted the long established CE/BCE to AD/BC here. He also decided to go and without discussion change the template to include only the offshoot Hermeticism here.

Now, there were many more rapid deletions by Moreschi of course on that article as well. The only other user from there to be involved, User:John Carter, has been relatively a breath of fresh air. Though he is proposing a merger I strongly oppose, he has been very civil and seems willing to have an actual discussion in the interest of improvement as so far as of yet. I applaud him for that.

The totality of what I call wikibullying though, more or less, though it felt like a lot more, comes from User:Moreschi and User:Dbachmann. It's rapid, forceful changes without discussion, at least not on Wikipedia, that strongly appear to me to be the result of me bringing up civility issues here. It is definitive of Wikistalking. I am trying to remain calm here, however the last time I took an extensive wikibreak and thought I would never return to Wikipedia was from actions just like this from two sockmasters and a friend I never agree with. KV(Talk) 03:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

the "rapid forceful changes without discussion" are entirely yours. We are just reverting them because your material as you present it has no place on Wikipedia. Please try to understand what this project is trying to do in the first place. What you want to do is write essays on your personal views on Hermetism. That's great, but not something you should do on Wikipedia (WP:SYN, WP:DUE). dab (𒁳) 05:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I sympathize with how you're feeling. Dbachmann and Moreschi can be extremely uncivil, perhaps having no notion of the personal effect it has. Your phrase wikibullying is most appropriate. They get away with it, by and large, because the perception is that they are right enough on content issues, therefore taken as a whole it is a net gain for the encyclopedia. Your calling them sockmasters and wikistalkers does not help, and is itself uncivil, and you would do well to strike those remarks. I note your appreciation of John Carter's manner, and hope that Moreschi that and Dbachmann note it too. 86.44.28.245 (talk) 06:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

is this all Wikipedia administration cares about these days, tone and civility? How about some appreciation for defending encyclopedicity? Wikipedia isn't myspace, remember? This is a non-issue. KV is perfectly welcome to present his evidence and engage in meaningful debate. Instead, he goes forum-shopping as soon as his {{essay-like}} contributions are touched. Anyone interested in discussing encyclopedic coverage of Hermeticism is welcome at Talk:Hermeticism. AN/I is not the venue for that. --dab (𒁳) 06:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, I must disagree on the "civility" issues. Compared to what I have to put up with, I deserve a medal for civility. I must maintain that it is civil to tell somebody "please clean up your nonsense and stop trolling" if the person in question has, in fact, been posting nonsense and trolling talk, it is simple WP:SPADE, with a please thrown in for WP:BATTLEGROUND. An incivil comment would be "stop posting your idiotic drivel you loser": something like that would be justly chastised as violating WP:CIVIL. I do make a point of being curt but civil even in the most hopeless cases. But civility should never stand in the way of calling actual content for what it is: "civility" means, discuss content, not the editor, and treat the editor with detached correctness even if they behave like a four-year-old. --dab (𒁳) 06:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Hermetism had certain things wrong with it, which were already acknowledged and intent to fix that up with academic sources has been stated already; and the deletion of things such as what bands mention "as above, so below" added by various random IPs is something I just didn't want to bother with. However, the articles were quite encyclopedic for the most part. Various long-standing sources were simply removed without discussion, at least not discussion on Wikipedia. We have a couple editors who can quite justly said to be of the same group coming in at once to start trying to create havoc as the result of a threat. You have removed peer-reviewed academic sources from a university press without discussion, removing a helpful template without discussion, and changed the CE/BCE scale to AD/BC without explanation or discussion. That is a clear violation of Wikipedia:MOS#Longer_periods, and not once, but twice so far. Drastic changes like this should be discussed first. I did state that I didn't care what you did to the history section of Hermetism, because I knew that that was unencyclopedic as it stood and needed a complete rewrite as soon as I had the opportunity to sit down and do so. Of course, instead of spending time doing so, I find myself in conflict with you and Moreschi. You have had to deal with someone who has added 70 plus academic sources into Hermetic-related articles over the past couple weeks and has deleted large sections of the unencyclopedic parts during that period and rewrote entire sections. Someone who is looking to improve the articles and improve verifiability, and who was in the act of doing just that. Discussion before undoing large parts of cited work from what Wikipedia considers the best possible sources would be expected. The same goes for rewording them to mean something completely different, that the source is not saying there, because you wish to put your own view onto the page without providing any source and without allowing the cited view onto the page. That's what you have to deal with; why should you get a medal for that. How was I posting nonsense and trolling talk? Can you show us diffs, as I have shown for what you have done? KV(Talk) 13:38, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I could only be called wikipedia administration in the widest possible sense of the phrase, being an IP. And even I, in my way, indicated that you had the general support of the community. But take it as an opportunity to display your condescension, by all means. 86.44.28.245 (talk) 06:51, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I would like to quote myself:

Of course, the old deletion discussion is noneffective here seeing as it was at the urging of a friend and two sock masters User:Hanuman Das and User:999 who were both banned for sockpuppetry.

Unless Dbachmann is claiming to have run one of these two accounts, I did not call him a sockmaster. And I suppose I would be wrong to call them sock masters as well; it seems they were both sock puppets of User:Ekajati. I did not call Dbachmann a sock master unless he claims relation to these accounts. That was commentary on the deletion review that had been satisfied. KV(Talk) 11:44, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This is ridiculous

My patience is rapidly running out. KV is now revert-warring to try to retain some of the crummiest, fringiest material I've seen on Wikipedia in months (not to mention here, some of the most POV). He clearly has no idea about WP:SYNTH, nor a number of other equally important policies such as WP:RS. In the meantime he's trying to derail the process of cleaning out the rubbish from these articles with pointless, wikilawyerish ANI threads querulously complaining about perceived incivility from myself and Dbachmann, who are devoting hours of our precious time sorting out a mess he has created when we both have much better things to do. He keeps on going like this and he's on the fast track for a block for disruption - or, at least, he should be. This nonsense about sockmasters and wikibullies is also far more uncivil than any wording Dbachmann and I have used. Thank you. Moreschi2 (talk) 13:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Your patience is running out? When have you shown any patience at all? You've just went through arbitrarily deleting, claiming that you can violate WP:MOS without a good reason for change, and you've deleted much cited text without discussion, and that includes citations from scholarly sources. Where am I violating WP:SYNTH? I have not sythesized anything except where the two subjects do come to the same conclusion, and there I even show criticism of those conclusions. How is the article POV at all? I have been very conservative in my reverts. Which include you deleting the template for discussion of a merger proposed by User:John Carter, well cited text, and violating MOS. Am I disrupting Wikipedia by trying to keep policy the same? The articles were being steadily improved before you came deleting everything, and that included me deleting parts of it myself so I could replace it with more suitable text. Yet, you threaten to use your administrative power to win a disagreement. And if you believe that it is nonsense that User:Hanuman Das and User:999 were sockmasters, how about you explain why they are banned for being sockpuppets? KV(Talk) 14:07, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I disagree that DBachmann is as rude on wiki as people often claim- he just knows when stuff is not suitable for wiki and deals with it via merges, removal etc. Merkin's mum 19:59, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment. The "civility" issues being seen here are an understandable frustration over a long-running issue. King Vegita has been stumping on this issue for quite some time. If recent responses are less-than-complete, that's indicative of nothing more than refusing to repeat oneself to someone who has had the principles and issues involved explained to them many times. The long ongoing nature of the problem shows that the discontentment with KV's advocacy on this issue is not limited to a small swath of "informal meatpuppetry". It is seriously disruptive to have such a long-ongoing issue generated by a single user and it's well past time for KV to work within the content rules that he surely groks by now (or never will). Vassyana (talk) 22:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Resolved. Igorberger blocked indefinitely as per community consensus - with provisions made for Barneca to mentor and if Igorberger reaches a point where he appears to be ready to re-join the community - Barneca to put in a suggestion of his unblocking at a new ANI thread

User:Igorberger is harrassing me.

Most of his dislike for me stems from disputes in Talk:Anti-Americanism. The problem is that recently he has taken his "battle" to other articles. He is obviously checking my contribs and following me around to get involved with whatever I do.

At the Village Pump, I proposed a general policy that anti-[nation] articles follow the naming convention (identity), e.g. only self-identified anti-Americans should be called anti-American. [42] He made no contribution there, but announced (dishonestly) in anti-Americanism Talk page that I wanted to delete all these articles [43].

Then he took the issue to the Talk page of an article I've never read, edited, or discussed, and used the same technique to rabble-rouse against me. He told editors there, none of whom I know, to watch out for me. Talk:State_terrorism_and_the_United_States#All_anti-country_articles_are_POV. Again, he misrepresents (can I say "lies about"?) what I said (I haven't said anything should be deleted).

I recently made a small edit to the article on Phillip K. Dick. Within hours Igor showed up, and started editing that article, including reverting my edits. [44]

He filed a sockpuppetry case on me, in which he compares me to Hitler, with a The Final Solution reference (it is hard to follow): [45]

In the anti-Americanism article itself, his comments toward me are always dismissive and often personal. I would ignore them, but when he follows me around to other articles, it becomes impossible to ignore.

Here he says he can't assume good faith because I am "trying to influence and change Wikipedia policy." [46] He also doesn't refer to me by name but by as "the SSP & SPA" I don't even know what SSP means (I'm sure it's not good) but I think SPA is single-purpose account.

Here he continues belittling me: [47]

Here he belittles my attempt to explain my position: [48]

More dismissive comments: [49]

There is more, but I won't go on. The main problem is that I cannot ignore him, because he has decided to follow me around Wikipedia. Life.temp (talk) 12:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, back when Life.temp started the Village Pump discussion, Igor advised people to consider Life.temp's status as an "SPA" before considering his suggestions [50]. I had reverted that comment on the grounds that it was harassment [51], to which Igor responded by leaving me this [52] on my talk page. I then responded on his talk page [53]. I've had my own long-term problems with Igor and short of blocking him for being a general nuisance, we should at least make sure he doesn't engage in blatant harassment. Equazcion •✗/C • 12:29, 13 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Igor has just posted a Wikiquette Alert for Life.temp: Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts#User:Life.temp. This was done after he was notified of this ANI. Equazcion •✗/C • 13:03, 13 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Igor has always been a "problem" editor, and he's got into bother before but this is too far, following someone around harrrasing them is wikistalking--Phoenix-wiki 13:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Agree, and he was been warned far too many times. Tiptoety ^talk 19:27, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

This needs to wait until the RFCU is processed. Life.temp is certainly displaying a lot of well known sockpuppet tendencies. Jtrainor (talk) 01:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

(From my entirely civil interactions with) User:Igorberger, they can be difficult to understand at times. From other observations I have made (concerning previous posts to this page), this can be a problem. And Igor also may be inclined to state suppositions as if they were already proved. If Igor can refrain from such inflation of language which can easily be percieved as incivility in the heat of the moment, then Igor's concerns may be able to be addressed. The other user should not be the subject of incivility from Igor. There seems to be a need for further processes to proceed however. And hopefully Igor can come to understand how to engage in discussion with a user if possible, rather than rushing to judgement. That is my understanding, I just happened to have found this thread, though I have not been involved. --Newbyguesses (talk) 02:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

• His last comment directed at me: "Sorry the current version looks like shit. Definiton this definiton that, la, la , la, blah, blah , blah! Get it together and make an article, not a dictionary definion as it looks now that it have become!" [54]. It's not that any one comment is extreme. He's not abusive. It just disrupts the consensus process by never stopping, and there's a red flag when he takes it to other articles.
• I requested informal mediation for the anti-Americanism article, but I'm not optimistic. Right now, people are trying to en masse revert every edit that's been made in the last week.
• The acronyms are confusing. Using the Help Page search told me what SSP means, but returned no results for RFCU. Life.temp (talk) 13:54, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor Berger, Igor the Troll...

• Igor apparently trolls as a hobby. He has a Web site and a blog dedicated to blogging about his well-spent time in troll-dom: http://www.igorthetroll.com/
• The "About Me" link identifies him as Igor Berger: http://www.igorthetroll.com/i-am-igor-the-troll.php
• The"My Company" link contains the same profile as his Talk page, and includes Wikipedia as a "project.": http://www.ivbsolutions.net/

Ban please. Life.temp (talk) 14:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

• Apparently, this and an editor named John Gohde are hot topics in the blogosphere....
• http://naturalhealthperspective.net/2008/01/26/gohdes-apprentice/
• Somebody put this guy on a gerbil treadmill and use the energy for something useful. He's probably User talk:ArthurMongli too.

Life.temp (talk) 14:57, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd say he describes himself pretty accurately on his website: "a really nice troll". Well, nice as long as you tolerate his trolling. If you express any discontentment, he bites. He seems to talk incessantly regardless of whether he knows what he's saying or even has anything to say. This is probably the one individual at Wikipedia who can influence what I do here, in that I've come to avoid anything he's involved in. He's just that difficult. Equazcion •✗/C • 15:32, 14 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we should all be allowed to give him the inattention he deserves. Ban. One more then I quit wasting time with trolls...

In his profile at another site, he lists his contributions to Wikipedia under the heading "Internet Troll.":

http://www.londonfetishscene.com/wipi/index.php/User:Igorberger

Life.temp (talk) 15:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Speaks for itself. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:42, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The possibility of Life.temp sockpuppeting needs to be dealt with at the same time. Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Bsharvy (2nd). He appeared on Anti-Americanism just after the last sock was shown the door and has shown much the same tendencies. Marskell (talk) 17:24, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, a lot of us have reason to believe that 'Life.temp' is yet another incarnation of the banned user Bsarvy, aka 'Rachel', aka 'Bshanvy'. After Bsharvy was banned he vowed on the Anti-Americanism page to come back to edit the page using different identities and so far he has been as good as his word. About every week at Anti-Americanism we get a brand new user editor who homes straight onto that page and who despite being new always displays an in depth knowledge of wikipedia procedures, and is especially adept at launching complaints procedures against anybody who opposes his edits - like what we see here. Bsharvy edits from Seoul, Korea and I have no doubt that 'Life temp' is from the same exactly the same place. Ask him. Colin4C (talk) 19:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

"A lot of us" who have the suspicion strangely seem to consist only of those who've been in disagreement with him at Talk:Anti-Americanism.

For the record though, I have the same suspicions, I just doubt the existence of any actual evidence, or the need to devote any energy to the pursuit of this suspicion. Life.temp hasn't actually done anything wrong yet, aside from disagree with Marskell, which as you can see from Talk:Anti-Americanism is not a good idea. Life.temp revert-warred with Igor a bit, but that seems to have been a one-time thing. This seems to have more to do with him being in disagreement with the majority there, than with the compulsion to be ever-vigilante in prosecuting sockpuppets of blocked users. He hasn't actually done anything wrong yet. He's not even being disruptive, unless being in vocal disagreement with the majority counts, and it doesn't.

Anyway, whether Life.temp is a sockpuppet or not, the fact remains that this is a circumstantial suspicion, and Igor should be keeping the suspected sockpuppet discussion to the suspected sockpuppet page, not following the user around reminding people of the suspicion at every turn. Equazcion •✗/C • 23:12, 14 Apr 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Convenience break

Igor mainatins a hitlist of Wikipedia editors at the londonfetishscene.com site I mentioned earlier:

BuzzKill

1. DogMeat WikiPedia:User:Gohdeilocks
   
2. RoadKill momojp
   
3. Marked for Tribunal for the crimes
   

   of: insighting discontent and instigating a mutiny WikiPedia:User:Equazcion
   

   As the court appointed counslor for the Queen, Country, and God, I recommend WikiPedia:WP:CSD pardoned

4. Marked for Assassination for being a Spam Malware to the Kabal

   WikiPedia:User:Mr.Z-man decreed by Grand Pupa. pardoned

5. WikiPedia:User:WilyD subversive and destructive to WikiPedia. WikiPedia:WP:COI
6. WikiPedia:User:VirtualSteve sleeper.

http://www.londonfetishscene.com/wipi/index.php/User:Igorberger#BuzzKill

I wonder what the admins are doing... The only admin I can see is User:Marskell, and he seems to think this page is for sniping at me over a SSP Igor (who else?) filed against me. It's a case without a single diff, and barely any claim that I disrupted anything. User:Marskell has made no comment there, where such comment belongs. I'd like to know policy about a user who brags about trolling and who calls User:Mr.Z-man "marked for assasination." That's what this discussion is for. Life.temp (talk) 09:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

• I would be curious to know why I'm on this guy's shit list. He links to the Wipipedia page on his userpage here, so they would seem to be the same guy ... WilyD 13:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

That page looks like a joke to me. I shall ask him to add me to it. Jtrainor (talk) 20:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Trolling is a joke. If you mean he probably hasn't actually hired Jason Bourne to kill User:Mr.Z-man, I agree. The point is that he comes to troll, and says so. (Additional comment: some editors will feel intimidated if they find themselves on that list.) Life.temp (talk) 21:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

• I see today that I am also on this list - this is because I have often questioned Igorberger's edits and I have had the audacity to block him for his foul play previously. Interestingly - for those that feel the need to assume good faith under any circumstance - actually checking through all of Igorberger's editing history will reveal that he has been questioned, warned and blocked by many, many other editors for his consistent trolling, his tenacious editing style, his blatant refactoring, his conflict of interest edits, his attempts to use the wikipedia name to further his personal businesses and his intimidation of other editors. His edits have been taken to task many times at ANI, MFD, and of course on his talk page. Igorberger uses the same methods for this always - simply substituting the name of his latest out of favour editor or administrator into his usual nonsensical diatribe. He then curries favour with other editors who through lack of time, interest or vanity support him because he called them his "brother" or "a good man" etc on their talk page. For those that feel the need to support - that is a matter for you to deal with, however trolling at this level is not a joke whether it is on wikipedia or off it. That said Igorberger knows that I am never intimidated by him and that I will as necessary block him again - and for considerable length of time if he steps over the line in the future - and I am not involved in that matter. For this matter - another administrator should act appropriately and quickly to again rein in this very poor representative of the wikipedia community who feels the need to belittle and user name/shame his fellow contributors.--VS ^talk 00:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] To ban or not to ban

I was || this close this blocking this guy indefinitely. As far as I'm concerned, this kind of long-term trolling has no place on our 'pedia. But I want to make sure it has consensus, so, what are your thoughts? Grandmasterka 03:07, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not neutral on this, as he and I chat on my talk page. I've seen him do disruptive things, but don't follow him around, so I evidently don't know the worst of it, but he's always seemed basically OK to me. He appears to contribute at least semi-productively at, for example, State terrorism and the United States (I don't follow that article much, so I can't quantify it more than that, but he seems to be working with other editors there).

If I was to talk with him about his future here, as someone he seems to respect, what would you like me to say beyond:

1. removing lists of WP users from his off-wiki page,
2. letting the SSP run its course without following life.temp around,
3. perhaps some kind of mentorship (if he's open to it, which I suspect, but don't know, he might be open to).

Again, I haven't followed his every move, but from what I know of him, the descriptions above seem a little too harsh, and (again acknowledging my COI here), indef blocking seems like too much. --barneca (talk) 03:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

As it happens, Igor and I have gotten along in our interactions but I had grown rather wary, since although we tended to agree more or less on edits, I never seemed to agree with the unencyclopedic reasons he gave for agreeing with me (so I began thinking it might only be luck). Igor's behaviour as outlined above, about which I became aware only lately, is utterly blockable. However, the other day, he seemed to take my thoughts on his uncivil comments about others to heart. Hence, I strongly hope Igor at least shares his thoughts about his own behaviour before someone drops an indef block upon him. Gwen Gale (talk) 03:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• Hi Barneca & Gwen - not to throw water on your (and indeed our) general AGF principles but Barneca, Igor has been through this process of requesting he listen to someone he respects before. He has a history of jumping from one person he respects to another. See here for example his last ANI thread Gwen his "point taken" comment (like the one you diff) are exactly what he does every time he gets into hot water like this - for example this one where he apologises for being dickish after appearing to post an incorrect signature, or this one where another editor provides a very detailed summary as to why his editing is problematic and Igor thanks him for the evaluation but then continues to edit in the same style. Given that I have been watching his history for some months I hope you will understand why I support absolutely an indefinite block ... and if I was not attempting to remain non-proprietary at this time because he has slightly involved me in this issue by including my name in a rather cowardly off-wiki attack - I would do it myself.--VS ^talk 05:02, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, at least I understand why I'd gotten wary. I see strong support here that Igor knows he's using this account for something other than building an encyclopeda. Gwen Gale (talk) 05:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with VS's take on this. Igor tends to act as if he respects someone and is taking in their advice, but when it comes to practice he ignores it. Then, if pressed, he bites back. Just like everyone thinks when they first encounter him I used to believe that Igor genuinely wanted to be mentored, but I no longer hold that belief. I think he's going to keep on doing what he does despite what anyone tells him. He's not interested in changing -- but he will act like he is, just to get on people's good sides. Equazcion •✗/C • 06:07, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

That is an excellent summary of my experience with this editor. Jehochman ^Talk 06:10, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Just do it. We don't need to subject good-faith contributors to this nonsense any longer. Some people are here to write, others notso much. --Haemo (talk) 06:23, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone done an Rfc then, (on Igor)? Wouldn't that be a reasonable procedure, and require two (2) users to endorse it, that they had tried and failed to resolve particular issues. (Not for or against, if there is evidence of particular transgressions that other editors wish to pursue.) --Newbyguesses (talk) 08:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• Huh? Why in heavens name would be doing a request for comment? This is the appropriate procedure for transgressions to be considered and dealt with by Administrators--VS ^talk 10:03, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor said something yesterday that implied he wasn't going to participate in "life.temp's thread". If true, he may not know an indef block is being considered; I've notified him that he might want to say something here. How he handles that response will strongly affect my own opinion on whether this is the correct thing to do. Like I said, I haven't been following his every move, so it's possible the "mild" disruption I've seen myself has actually been significantly more. But based on my interaction with him, I'm just surprised. --barneca (talk) 10:44, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• Maybe it's just me, but I'm just seeing someone frustrated, who wants to call a spade a spade but feels he is prevented from doing so by the bureaucracy here (don't deny it...we all know it is overwhelming for newcomers). I would like to see an RFC, with specific issues raised (and hopefully dealt with, if he can be convinced to participate in good faith) before the banhammer is applied. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 10:54, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The guy nicknamed himself "Igor the Troll." He registered igorthetroll.com. He keeps a list of articles he's edited titled "Internet Trolling." And here we are trying to figure out if he is a troll. I mean...gee. Life.temp (talk) 11:14, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• Wants to call a spade a spade? What does he want to say that he's been prevented from saying? Igor's behavior hasn't exactly struck me as reserved. From what I've seen he's been rather open, and overly so.

• You're missing the point. This user has been given constructive criticism before. It's no longer a matter of identifying the problematic behavior and communicating it to him. That's been tried many times, by many different people, many of whom Igor thanked and came back to with further questions and praise. But all the while he never actually took any of the advice he was given. If you started an RFC for Igor, he'd say he's sorry a few times and tell everyone how much he appreciates their help, and then keep on doing what he does. More dispute resolution would just delay the inevitable. Igor has been the subject of extensive community discussion before, and he's been given advice, warnings, and finally ultimatums as a result. It's all been done. There's no reason reason to go through it all over again expecting different results.

• Besides which, an RFC, being a "request for comment", would be redundant with this discussion. We've got all the comments we need right here. Whether this discussion were carried out at ANI or RFC makes no difference, and this one is already started, so there's no point in beginning anew. If you have thoughts about Igor that you would have expressed at RfC, please feel free to state them here. It's all pretty much the same. Equazcion •✗/C • 11:41, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

• Exactly stated - Equazcion - Of course one of the problems is that only those editors that have spent time over many months trying to understand and assist Igor actually have the background to know what damage he is doing to the project. To see that damage extending to off-wiki sites compounds the evidence. Quite frankly drive by comments from editors that have not experienced this editor's real reason for being here or who have not checked through all or at least a large quantity of his edits are not of any assistance because this is the very game that Igor hopes the community will play on his behalf.--VS ^talk 11:53, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• No, comments from "outsiders" is pretty much the point of WP:ANI. Otherwise it's just a big self-reinforcing echo chamber. --barneca (talk) 11:59, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• No, it was not my suggestion to not allow "outsider" comments Barneca - it was my suggestion to editors not to comment unless that editor had made him/herself very familiar with Igor's editing history. I think you actually were the first above to suggest similarly that such a lack of familiarity makes any comment less than complete?--VS ^talk 12:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• Comments from outsiders are appreciated, but educated comments based on an examination of the editor's past contributions and exchanges is what would truly be helpful. There are some cases at ANI that are glaringly obvious to "outsiders" and therefore might not require such an in-depth look. This unfortunately isn't one of them. The fact that this user acts so outwardly-agreeable is part of the point here. Drive-by commenters who don't look any deeper than that and come to the obvious conclusion that this is a misunderstood soul looking to reach out to someone are just perpetuating the very problem we're attempting to address. Equazcion •✗/C • 12:08, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Igor's been up on AN/I before, and I've commented on him before. Equazcion has it about right. Igor plays games. I'm one in the 'supports a community ban' column. ThuranX (talk) 12:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I tried to stay away from this mess at ANI, because I do not think it is the right place to address all these issues, but I was requested to comment here. A lot of these has been started because the article anti-Americanism, but some of it goes back even before this article. Who is right and who is worng and why who did what is not a simple thing to address. I really feel ANI, fuels drama, and no good to Wikipedia project and all its editors. I feel all the conserns need to be addressed in proper venues of dispute resolution. Igor Berger (talk) 15:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor, none of this has anything to do with content dispute resolution and it seems to have been going on for much longer than since you began editing anti-Americanism. Either way, I don't understand why you're not responding to all these things being said about you. Have you given this any thought? Is there anything you can do to skirt stirring up these kinds of complaints about your behaviour from now on? Gwen Gale (talk) 16:06, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Gwen, I think ANI is the wrong place to address these conserns. Why has this escalated to this wikidrama in the first place? Could it be that dispute resolutions raised by me about editors and editors conserned with me were not addressed in proper dispute resolution venues? But yes, with regards to your consern, I will do my best not to flame the situation and be extremly civil in talking to other editors to address any problems that I or they may have. Igor Berger (talk) 16:33, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Why do you say talking about it here is wikidrama? Gwen Gale (talk) 17:13, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Because it flames things up, instead of addressing editors' conserns! There are times when ANI works but it really needs to be NPOV, or it gets derailed to a point where editors are playing football with one editor, using him as a ball. Then the audiance just jumps on the bandwagon, and more wikidrama. It is not healthy psychologically for anyone, and does not fix problems, but just brushes things under the rug. Also right now there are no WP:DIFFs but just accusations. I prefer to address all accusations in a more humane - stable - not flamed - atmosphere like RFC/U Igor Berger (talk) 17:53, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

There many diffs to your edits in this thread. Why did you say there aren't any? Gwen Gale (talk) 17:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

(undent)Ok, not to rehash every thing from scratch and go into a circular debate, what in particular would you like me to address? Igor Berger (talk) 18:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

If you refering to the 3 points that admin Barneca raised, I agree to all 3 of them. Igor Berger (talk) 18:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

You didn't answer my question about the diffs. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I feel the case for harassment of User:Life.temp has not been made. I filled an SSP report on him and Wiki-Etiquettes report. Because I found his behavior on article anti-Americanism problematic. I even came to you to ask for help because I could not get anyone to addres the issue accept of the editors involved in editing the article anti-Americanism. But those editor were having the same problem with the editor. We have all tried to talk to the editor about AA but he is taking it all as personal. If he feels that I have harassed him in anyway, I would like to apoligize to him for that. We are not here, to push anyone off the project. Like it says, "Wikipedia is a free online encyclopedia that anyone can edit" Igor Berger (talk) 18:59, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor, I've asked you twice why you said "right now there are no WP:DIFFs" in this thread when in truth there are many. Twice you haven't answered me. Instead, you've made non specific agreements and apologies with no reasoning or acknowledgement behind them to show you have any understanding of others' worries or a wish to follow up on them by swaying your behaviour. This is spot on the kind of thing these editors have been unhappy about with you. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:09, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Gwen, this is my POV that the diffs to Lifi.temp harassment acquisitions have not been provided. But everyone has there own POV. Were the diffs supporting my behavior which is disapproved by some editor provided? I do not know, I was not referring to that. Igor Berger (talk) 19:16, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Shall I take these answers as an acknowledgement that you didn't bother to read this thread before replying to it? Gwen Gale (talk) 19:20, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I read the first part, dealing with acquisitions of harassment, the other part I did not read in full. It is a bit hard to read this long thread. That is why I proposed to address in RFC/U. Igor Berger (talk) 19:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

(undent)Anyway, I like to apologize to any editor who thinks my behavior is not appropreate.I do not wish the community to see me in bad light. Igor Berger (talk) 19:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

What are you apologizing for? Gwen Gale (talk) 19:20, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

If some editors feel my behavior is not appropriate I need to respect what they saying and not beat the dead horse trying to prove them wrong. If editors have consern about another editor's behavior that editor needs to think why they have consern and try to fix that. Igor Berger (talk) 19:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment My take is that Igor would like to get along with what he's been doing (and hopes any other editors will "think why they have consern [sic] and try to fix that"). I think one "fix" might be a preventative block until Igor is more willing or able to articulate what he's apologizing for. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

It remains the case that I'm interested to know why/how I'm in a conflict with this user (as he seems to think). WilyD 19:57, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Wily, my apology to you for ever putting you on that list. We never had any contact between each other. I am trully sorry for atracting any negative attention to you. Igor Berger (talk) 20:01, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor why did you put him on an off-wiki hate-list when you'd never even had contact with him? Gwen Gale (talk) 20:03, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

It was because of a comment I read. The whole list is childish and stupid on my part. It is a disgrace to me and to Wikipedia. I created this list when I first started editing regularly Wikipedia and since then I have learned a lot about Wikipedia. And have had myself put on sily lists. I apologize to all editors who I have put on the list. I think any list talking about Wikipedians are bad taste and immature. Igor Berger (talk) 20:11, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I see. Why is it still up? Gwen Gale (talk) 20:16, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

(e/c) It's on a wiki, right? You could just delete it right now if you wanted to, right? That would be an excellent move; not to escape consequences, but because having that list is wrong, and not wise. --barneca (talk) 20:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I did not want it to look like I am trying to hide something and refactor to make myself look good! I did a bad thing and I will remove it right now. Igor Berger (talk) 20:20, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I removed everyone from the list. Igor Berger (talk) 20:26, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Igor, but I'm starting to think that Gwen's "take" on this a little up the page might make sense. An indef block, not the "infinite" kind but the "until you're unblocked" kind, might make sense, where "out of the spotlight" (to use Igor's phrase), on his talk page, we can clarify what concerns really have to be addressed before unblocking. "willing or able to articulate what he's apologizing for", as it were. This solution, I would grudgingly support. A "ban", no. To me, a ban implies someone isn't welcome. I think Igor is welcome if he alters his behavior.

But in any case I think at this stage an RfC is going to turn into a mirror of this thread, and I don't think it's the solution. let's deal with it here and now. --barneca (talk) 20:25, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Barneca, I am not trying to shrug my responsibility or say my behavior is good. But when someone comes and say your behavior is bad, it is hard to understand what is bad, unless you say. Igor this is bad, please correct it. Then I know what I need to fix. Like when I was asked not to post at ANI for 30 days, even after the 30 days I have not posted unless it is conserns me. So I do not close my ears, and think I know it all. I listen to my peers when they advise me and talk to me, instead of saying, "bad Igor" Igor Berger (talk) 20:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] To ban or not, part deux

This kind of exchange is part of the problem. It doesn't get anywhere, because Igor isn't giving any actual answers. Take this sample from above:

Why do you say talking about it here is wikidrama? Gwen Gale

Because it flames things up, instead of addressing editors' conserns! There are times when ANI works but it really needs to be NPOV, or it gets derailed to a point where editors are playing football with one editor, using him as a ball. Then the audiance just jumps on the bandwagon, and more wikidrama. It is not healthy psychologically for anyone, and does not fix problems, but just brushes things under the rug." Igor berger

When you ask Igor to address something, he responds (if these can be called responses) by throwing around common phrases, big words, and most of all, policy abbreviations, most of which don't even apply to the current situation. "Neutral point of view" is about writing articles, and has nothing to do with discussions. On the contrary, everyone is encouraged to express their POVs during a discussion. That would be true no matter where it took place. ANI is just a venue. It doesn't cause any more drama than any other place. Talk here, Igor, because this is where the discussion began. It would be the same discussion, inducing the same level of "psychological health" and equally "addressing editors' concerns" no matter where it took place. A discussion likewise does not "sweep things under the rug" -- it of course does the opposite of that, airing things out in the open -- and again, the venue in which it takes place does not determine its level of under-rug sweepage. Equazcion •✗/C • 21:06, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I am welcome to a discussion no matter where it takes place. I am glad you want to discuss thing with me. And have always welcomed it at my talk page. Please tell me one point at a time what is it about my behavior as a Wikipedia editor that conserns you. Igor Berger (talk) 21:28, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor, looking at your edit history I often get a feeling you've looked over many talk and project pages, memorized some Wikipediaish jargony stuff and other catch phrases, then jumbled it all up, to later use as a kind of easy shorthand when replying to other editors, in the hope this would make you seem knowledgeable and experienced. The pith is, since this method doesn't even begin to help you talk with other editors in any meaningful or helpful way, they take it as game playing or disruption. What do you think about that? Gwen Gale (talk) 21:40, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Please answer completely separately from Gwen's question: Igor, are you willing to accept a mentor assigned by the community - yes or no? Franamax (talk) 21:49, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I did try to keep this separate, guys, and in deference to Gwen's question. Since both have been artfully-replied-to, I'll ask mine again: community appoints mentor, Igor accepts, one more chance; community declines or Igor declines or mentorship fails, Igor faces a ban. Has this actually been tried? Can the previous mentor please comment? This is the last step before a ban and should have one spin around the block. Franamax (talk) 22:25, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd personally rather hear an answer to Gwen's question. Igor has always been outwardly willing to accept mentorship from the community -- he's had an adoption userbox posted on his userpage for as long as I can remember -- but mentoring has been tried and has never solved anything, as has been described repeatedly and at length above. Gwen is steering this in the right direction. Her question addresses the issue head-on. Equazcion •✗/C • 22:00, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

I'd add that the mentorship issue has been addressed by Igor before who has been asking to be both an adopter and adoptee for many months (he considered himself a senior editor from very early in his wiki involvement), but when a well meaning senior editor tried to assist by pointing out the illogical nature of this Igor attacked him for trolling.--VS ^talk 22:07, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I am willing to accept mentor, and I was hoping to get one long time ago. I have a user box saying user looking to be atopted. I think I found an experience admin editor who might be interested in mentoring me. I would need to talk to him about this. Now the hard part, Gwen's question. Yes I agree with Gwen, just reading policy and then spiting it out, is problemtatic. At the end of the day, it is plain English, not policy that constitute communication. Igor Berger (talk) 22:13, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor, getting you to agree with Gwen was not the point of her question. You need to address this, as it is at the center of the issue. How do you think her assessment applies to your past behavior? If you agree that shes accurately described what you've been doing, how do you explain that? And what will you do differently in the future? Equazcion •✗/C • 22:21, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think working with a mentor will help me figure out what I am doing that is wrong. As you are aware, I came to you asking for advice on anti-Americanism but you really never talked to me. So I just kep adding what I though were problems to that section on your talk page but never got a definitive recommendation. Pretty much I had to read your mind, and guess as to what to do based on your actions on anti-Americanism article. Igor Berger (talk) 22:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• Igor, why do you also then have a user box that indicates your belief that you are also a senior editor?--VS ^talk

This user has been given constructive criticism before. -- actually have the background to know what damage he is doing -- very familiar with Igor's editing history. -- Educated comments based on an examination of the editor's past contributions and exchanges is what would truly be helpful.

How about some [[DIFFs] (of Igor's bad contribbs. to articles, etc. in this discussion, before blocking/banning is enacted, please. --Newbyguesses (talk) 22:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• [EC]Have a look at the diffs that are provided already Newbyguesses - from the most recent that I just gave through to his last ANI and then the one above where I linked to where another editor provides a very detailed summary as to why his editing is problematic and Igor thanks him for the evaluation but then continues to edit in the same style. That will give you a start.--VS ^talk 22:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, for instance, this edit as of 13:40, 22 November 2007 to Igor's User page was not good, [55], (added experienced wikipedian), and this Diff [56] was problematical also, (in user:space). --Newbyguesses (talk) 22:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Adding both user boxes of looking to be adopted and wanting to adopt was and is, that I need help, but no one came to adopt me; Why I want to adopt other users, is because I do know something and maybe able to help other users. Igor Berger (talk) 22:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] To ban or not, part trois

Okay - now that we are back on track Igor - can you please give a detailed answer to Gwen's question?--VS ^talk 22:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• Igor you have just added to Equazcion that Well, I think working with a mentor will help me figure out what I am doing that is wrong. however when editor MKoltnow provided you with a very very detailed explanation of exactly what you were doing wrong - you did not seem to adjust your editing style in anyway. How do you explain that?--VS ^talk 23:02, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

  Well it was a good evaluation and I thanked the editor. But he did not come around to help me work with the problems. If he would have gave me one point at a time a discuss that point with me, maybe I could have fixed the problem. But he brought me a full plate and it was hard to digest. Igor Berger (talk) 23:09, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Earlier you had said you found this thread hard to read. Now you're saying that you can't take in more than one thing at a time. Do you think building an encyclopedia from reliable sources on a skeinish, open, highly threaded website like Wikipedia is something you can handle? Gwen Gale (talk) 23:14, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• To respond to the anti-americanism comment, Igor, I didn't respond to you because I along with EL_C had previously asked that you not go around like a messenger, delivering news to people on what's going on at articles -- which you seemed to agree to stop doing at the time, but then you continued. So I wasn't going to encourage that practice by responding. I did attempt to help out with the dispute at the anti-Americanism article though -- and all the while you kept on posting news about it on my talk page. Please don't dwell on this though -- answer VS's concerns now. Equazcion •✗/C • 23:07, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

An individual named "Igor the Troll" started a Google Groups thread called WikiPedia has undercover FBI and CIA agents as editors because he was blocked for 31 hours. This was right after VirtualSteve blocked Igor for 31 hours. Text of message: I was recently attacked and blocked from editing for 31 hours because I added a video link about Prescott Bush the gradfather of George W. Bush being pro Hitler and anti FDR. Does this seem like a thread started by someone interested being mentored? Life.temp (talk) 23:07, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I think we've got enough evidence of off-wiki attacks as a result of blocks. Thanks Life.temp, but dwelling on these is not constructive. Equazcion •✗/C • 23:10, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Likewise. Gwen Gale (talk) 23:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Punctuation - I brought up the question of community-appointed mentorship, it's yes or no and needs no comment. VS' original question is now being obscured:

"Okay - now that we are back on track Igor - can you please give a detailed answer to Gwen's question?" Franamax (talk) 23:14, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

community-appointed mentorship yes Gwen question, I thought I answered it. Can you guide me a bit what I missed. Igor Berger (talk) 23:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes you did answer:

Yes I agree with Gwen, just reading policy and then spiting it out, is problemtatic. At the end of the day, it is plain English, not policy that constitute communication. Igor Berger (talk) 22:13, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Then I said:

Igor, getting you to agree with Gwen was not the point of her question. You need to address this, as it is at the center of the issue. How do you think her assessment applies to your past behavior? If you agree that shes accurately described what you've been doing, how do you explain that? And what will you do differently in the future?

So let's start from there. Equazcion •✗/C • 23:22, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

To restate it for convenience: Igor, looking at your edit history I often get a feeling you've looked over many talk and project pages, memorized some Wikipediaish jargony stuff and other catch phrases, then jumbled it all up, to later use as a kind of easy shorthand when replying to other editors, in the hope this would make you seem knowledgeable and experienced. The pith is, since this method doesn't even begin to help you talk with other editors in any meaningful or helpful way, they take it as game playing or disruption. What do you think about that? Gwen Gale Equazcion •✗/C • 23:18, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

• and this relates to Gwen's second question as above Earlier you had said you found this thread hard to read. Now you're saying that you can't take in more than one thing at a time. Do you think building an encyclopedia from reliable sources on a skeinish, open, highly threaded website like Wikipedia is something you can handle? --VS ^talk 23:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Makes sence with refernces to WP:Social engineering Internet essay that I wrote. Yes it makes me look foolish. Igor Berger (talk) 23:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

We need a detailed answer to this whole question Igor! Can I ask that everyone sits back now to wait for a few minutes for Igor's answer before adding any more questions or comments, please--VS ^talk 23:23, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

(VS)(ec) Yes I can. When dealing with direct question, I can answer them. But if you just put 10 questions to me and do not come back to talk about them, how I suppose to respond to you? Igor Berger (talk) 23:25, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

(VS)Can you in your own words ask me the question? Because I thought I answered it to Gwen. Igor Berger (talk) 23:28, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Igor. Y'all, don't you see what's happening here? Gwen Gale (talk) 23:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• I do Gwen and I have seen it countless times before - do we really need any more discussion - I have much better things to do on Wiki?--VS ^talk 23:31, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• Yeah I'm getting that deja-vu-all-over-again feeling too. No, we don't need any more discussion. I believe the time has come to act. Equazcion •✗/C • 23:47, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

• Ban, the shitlist is the straw that convinces me he's not here to be constructive. Sceptre ^(talk) 23:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
• Having followed this since early January, this is a very intelligent guy who either doesn't get it; adapts slowly; or has a very clear and amusing plan. Either last-chance mentorship by someone who won't tolerate obfuscation, or ban. Franamax (talk) 00:13, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
• So that my opinion is clear - and also as having been following the progress of this editor for months - Ban.--VS ^talk 00:16, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
• I regretfully believe it's time for an indef block for disruptive behavior, with the continuing possiblity of discussion on their talk page. A "ban", implying not even being able to edit their own talk page and being, in a sense, persona non grata, is something I continue to strongly oppose. --barneca (talk) 00:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Given the fact that an indef-block would likely only be lifted with an agreement to mentorship, are you willing to assume that role? Franamax (talk) 00:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

At the risk of getting a giant "I told you so" from many people here doen the line, yes. If Igor is blocked, as long as he is not also unreasonably prevented from editing his own talk page, I'll try to mentor him there. If I feel we've reached a point where returning to Wikipedia editing would be productive, I'll bring it up at WP:ANI. If I ever reach a point where I don't think my time is being spent productively, then I'll quit, and unless he can find someone else, he'll be effectively banned. Igor has accepted the idea of a mentorship arrangement on my talk page: [57]. --barneca (talk) 00:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Since Barneca's willing to try, I support his suggestion of mentoring Igor on his talk page. Gwen Gale (talk) 01:06, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

• I haven't seen any progress in this user since the first similar ANI thread. Instead I see the same behavior repeated over and over again. Mentorship and further discussion would be a mistake, in my opinion, as it would just give this user a further forum to do what he does -- drag out painful and dramatic discussions until everyone loses interest. I'm quite certain my opinion is already clear, but I haven't actually said the word yet, so ban. Equazcion •✗/C • 00:24, 17 Apr 2008 (UTC)
• BanBlock indef for disruption, with mentoring on talk page. This user's edit history and his answers in the above thread give me no hint a mentor would be of any help. However, Barneca has said he is willing to try. Gwen Gale (talk) 00:32, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, User:Equazcion's attitude is plain, and obviously reasonable, since Equazcion has previously spent considerable effort in attempting to solve the problem there is with Igor, and their communications. 10 Apr 2008 (UTC). If User:Igorberger is "blocked", that is not a "ban". I haven't been on Igor's talkpage, though Igor has messaged to user talk:newbyguesses, about wikipedia:essays, not articles. I do not know the extent (it was mentioned) or background nor a lot of the details of Igor's accusations about the other user, subject to the original wikiquette alert by Igor which started off this AN/I thread. I think Igor can contribute productively, maybe a shortish "block", with continued clue-ing on the talk-page, is the best option at this time, though (I am not an admin) I wouldn't do it, apologies to those Users whose opinions differ. --NewbyG (talk) 00:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

• Okay I can see the merit of an indefinite block and some considerable question and answer tutelage under Barneca's guidance where Igor can only edit his talk page until Barneca is as absolutely certain as he can be that Igor is going to edit appropriately. Also because Barneca will in effect be the only one to unblock - I am willing to block indefinitely now (because this will be a consensus decision and thus there should be no concern over COI by my doing so. If I get a couple of agreements I will act now - thoughts please?--VS ^talk 01:25, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Normally COI would be an issue, but consensus here is nearly unanimous, seems silly to wait patiently for some other admin to come along. --barneca (talk) 01:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I've been endorsing a ban for a while here. Someone just do it already. --Haemo (talk) 01:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Umm, I think we're talking now about the anonymous editor above offering to indef-block and Barneca is the soft-hearted potential sucker on the line? Agree to that. Franamax (talk) 01:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Please do it now, I don't think anyone will make much of a fuss so long as he's blocked and Barneca's watching his talk page. Gwen Gale (talk) 01:25, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

• And now done folks - a big thanks to Barneca for putting his time and energy on the line, and a big hope that Igor will actually use this opportunity.--VS ^talk 01:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

• Gulp. --barneca (talk) 01:30, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Barneca, I'm impressed that someone went for my last-ditch argument. Read the history carefully and watch out, but all power to you, save a good one for the team if you can! :) Franamax (talk) 01:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Resolved. Igorberger blocked indefinitely as per community consensus - with provisions made for Barneca to mentor and if Igorberger reaches a point where he appears to be ready to re-join the community - Barneca to put in a suggestion of his unblocking at a new ANI thread

User:Igorberger is harrassing me.

Most of his dislike for me stems from disputes in Talk:Anti-Americanism. The problem is that recently he has taken his "battle" to other articles. He is obviously checking my contribs and following me around to get involved with whatever I do.

At the Village Pump, I proposed a general policy that anti-[nation] articles follow the naming convention (identity), e.g. only self-identified anti-Americans should be called anti-American. [60] He made no contribution there, but announced (dishonestly) in anti-Americanism Talk page that I wanted to delete all these articles [61].

Then he took the issue to the Talk page of an article I've never read, edited, or discussed, and used the same technique to rabble-rouse against me. He told editors there, none of whom I know, to watch out for me. Talk:State_terrorism_and_the_United_States#All_anti-country_articles_are_POV. Again, he misrepresents (can I say "lies about"?) what I said (I haven't said anything should be deleted).

I recently made a small edit to the article on Phillip K. Dick. Within hours Igor showed up, and started editing that article, including reverting my edits. [62]

He filed a sockpuppetry case on me, in which he compares me to Hitler, with a The Final Solution reference (it is hard to follow): [63]

In the anti-Americanism article itself, his comments toward me are always dismissive and often personal. I would ignore them, but when he follows me around to other articles, it becomes impossible to ignore.

Here he says he can't assume good faith because I am "trying to influence and change Wikipedia policy." [64] He also doesn't refer to me by name but by as "the SSP & SPA" I don't even know what SSP means (I'm sure it's not good) but I think SPA is single-purpose account.

Here he continues belittling me: [65]

Here he belittles my attempt to explain my position: [66]

More dismissive comments: [67]

There is more, but I won't go on. The main problem is that I cannot ignore him, because he has decided to follow me around Wikipedia. Life.temp (talk) 12:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, back when Life.temp started the Village Pump discussion, Igor advised people to consider Life.temp's status as an "SPA" before considering his suggestions [68]. I had reverted that comment on the grounds that it was harassment [69], to which Igor responded by leaving me this [70] on my talk page. I then responded on his talk page [71]. I've had my own long-term problems with Igor and short of blocking him for being a general nuisance, we should at least make sure he doesn't engage in blatant harassment. Equazcion •✗/C • 12:29, 13 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Igor has just posted a Wikiquette Alert for Life.temp: Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts#User:Life.temp. This was done after he was notified of this ANI. Equazcion •✗/C • 13:03, 13 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Igor has always been a "problem" editor, and he's got into bother before but this is too far, following someone around harrrasing them is wikistalking--Phoenix-wiki 13:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Agree, and he was been warned far too many times. Tiptoety ^talk 19:27, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

This needs to wait until the RFCU is processed. Life.temp is certainly displaying a lot of well known sockpuppet tendencies. Jtrainor (talk) 01:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

(From my entirely civil interactions with) User:Igorberger, they can be difficult to understand at times. From other observations I have made (concerning previous posts to this page), this can be a problem. And Igor also may be inclined to state suppositions as if they were already proved. If Igor can refrain from such inflation of language which can easily be percieved as incivility in the heat of the moment, then Igor's concerns may be able to be addressed. The other user should not be the subject of incivility from Igor. There seems to be a need for further processes to proceed however. And hopefully Igor can come to understand how to engage in discussion with a user if possible, rather than rushing to judgement. That is my understanding, I just happened to have found this thread, though I have not been involved. --Newbyguesses (talk) 02:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

• His last comment directed at me: "Sorry the current version looks like shit. Definiton this definiton that, la, la , la, blah, blah , blah! Get it together and make an article, not a dictionary definion as it looks now that it have become!" [72]. It's not that any one comment is extreme. He's not abusive. It just disrupts the consensus process by never stopping, and there's a red flag when he takes it to other articles.
• I requested informal mediation for the anti-Americanism article, but I'm not optimistic. Right now, people are trying to en masse revert every edit that's been made in the last week.
• The acronyms are confusing. Using the Help Page search told me what SSP means, but returned no results for RFCU. Life.temp (talk) 13:54, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor Berger, Igor the Troll...

• Igor apparently trolls as a hobby. He has a Web site and a blog dedicated to blogging about his well-spent time in troll-dom: http://www.igorthetroll.com/
• The "About Me" link identifies him as Igor Berger: http://www.igorthetroll.com/i-am-igor-the-troll.php
• The"My Company" link contains the same profile as his Talk page, and includes Wikipedia as a "project.": http://www.ivbsolutions.net/

Ban please. Life.temp (talk) 14:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

• Apparently, this and an editor named John Gohde are hot topics in the blogosphere....
• http://naturalhealthperspective.net/2008/01/26/gohdes-apprentice/
• Somebody put this guy on a gerbil treadmill and use the energy for something useful. He's probably User talk:ArthurMongli too.

Life.temp (talk) 14:57, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd say he describes himself pretty accurately on his website: "a really nice troll". Well, nice as long as you tolerate his trolling. If you express any discontentment, he bites. He seems to talk incessantly regardless of whether he knows what he's saying or even has anything to say. This is probably the one individual at Wikipedia who can influence what I do here, in that I've come to avoid anything he's involved in. He's just that difficult. Equazcion •✗/C • 15:32, 14 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we should all be allowed to give him the inattention he deserves. Ban. One more then I quit wasting time with trolls...

In his profile at another site, he lists his contributions to Wikipedia under the heading "Internet Troll.":

http://www.londonfetishscene.com/wipi/index.php/User:Igorberger

Life.temp (talk) 15:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Speaks for itself. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:42, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The possibility of Life.temp sockpuppeting needs to be dealt with at the same time. Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Bsharvy (2nd). He appeared on Anti-Americanism just after the last sock was shown the door and has shown much the same tendencies. Marskell (talk) 17:24, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, a lot of us have reason to believe that 'Life.temp' is yet another incarnation of the banned user Bsarvy, aka 'Rachel', aka 'Bshanvy'. After Bsharvy was banned he vowed on the Anti-Americanism page to come back to edit the page using different identities and so far he has been as good as his word. About every week at Anti-Americanism we get a brand new user editor who homes straight onto that page and who despite being new always displays an in depth knowledge of wikipedia procedures, and is especially adept at launching complaints procedures against anybody who opposes his edits - like what we see here. Bsharvy edits from Seoul, Korea and I have no doubt that 'Life temp' is from the same exactly the same place. Ask him. Colin4C (talk) 19:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

"A lot of us" who have the suspicion strangely seem to consist only of those who've been in disagreement with him at Talk:Anti-Americanism.

For the record though, I have the same suspicions, I just doubt the existence of any actual evidence, or the need to devote any energy to the pursuit of this suspicion. Life.temp hasn't actually done anything wrong yet, aside from disagree with Marskell, which as you can see from Talk:Anti-Americanism is not a good idea. Life.temp revert-warred with Igor a bit, but that seems to have been a one-time thing. This seems to have more to do with him being in disagreement with the majority there, than with the compulsion to be ever-vigilante in prosecuting sockpuppets of blocked users. He hasn't actually done anything wrong yet. He's not even being disruptive, unless being in vocal disagreement with the majority counts, and it doesn't.

Anyway, whether Life.temp is a sockpuppet or not, the fact remains that this is a circumstantial suspicion, and Igor should be keeping the suspected sockpuppet discussion to the suspected sockpuppet page, not following the user around reminding people of the suspicion at every turn. Equazcion •✗/C • 23:12, 14 Apr 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Convenience break

Igor mainatins a hitlist of Wikipedia editors at the londonfetishscene.com site I mentioned earlier:

BuzzKill

1. DogMeat WikiPedia:User:Gohdeilocks
   
2. RoadKill momojp
   
3. Marked for Tribunal for the crimes
   

   of: insighting discontent and instigating a mutiny WikiPedia:User:Equazcion
   

   As the court appointed counslor for the Queen, Country, and God, I recommend WikiPedia:WP:CSD pardoned

4. Marked for Assassination for being a Spam Malware to the Kabal

   WikiPedia:User:Mr.Z-man decreed by Grand Pupa. pardoned

5. WikiPedia:User:WilyD subversive and destructive to WikiPedia. WikiPedia:WP:COI
6. WikiPedia:User:VirtualSteve sleeper.

http://www.londonfetishscene.com/wipi/index.php/User:Igorberger#BuzzKill

I wonder what the admins are doing... The only admin I can see is User:Marskell, and he seems to think this page is for sniping at me over a SSP Igor (who else?) filed against me. It's a case without a single diff, and barely any claim that I disrupted anything. User:Marskell has made no comment there, where such comment belongs. I'd like to know policy about a user who brags about trolling and who calls User:Mr.Z-man "marked for assasination." That's what this discussion is for. Life.temp (talk) 09:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

• I would be curious to know why I'm on this guy's shit list. He links to the Wipipedia page on his userpage here, so they would seem to be the same guy ... WilyD 13:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

That page looks like a joke to me. I shall ask him to add me to it. Jtrainor (talk) 20:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Trolling is a joke. If you mean he probably hasn't actually hired Jason Bourne to kill User:Mr.Z-man, I agree. The point is that he comes to troll, and says so. (Additional comment: some editors will feel intimidated if they find themselves on that list.) Life.temp (talk) 21:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

• I see today that I am also on this list - this is because I have often questioned Igorberger's edits and I have had the audacity to block him for his foul play previously. Interestingly - for those that feel the need to assume good faith under any circumstance - actually checking through all of Igorberger's editing history will reveal that he has been questioned, warned and blocked by many, many other editors for his consistent trolling, his tenacious editing style, his blatant refactoring, his conflict of interest edits, his attempts to use the wikipedia name to further his personal businesses and his intimidation of other editors. His edits have been taken to task many times at ANI, MFD, and of course on his talk page. Igorberger uses the same methods for this always - simply substituting the name of his latest out of favour editor or administrator into his usual nonsensical diatribe. He then curries favour with other editors who through lack of time, interest or vanity support him because he called them his "brother" or "a good man" etc on their talk page. For those that feel the need to support - that is a matter for you to deal with, however trolling at this level is not a joke whether it is on wikipedia or off it. That said Igorberger knows that I am never intimidated by him and that I will as necessary block him again - and for considerable length of time if he steps over the line in the future - and I am not involved in that matter. For this matter - another administrator should act appropriately and quickly to again rein in this very poor representative of the wikipedia community who feels the need to belittle and user name/shame his fellow contributors.--VS ^talk 00:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] To ban or not to ban

I was || this close this blocking this guy indefinitely. As far as I'm concerned, this kind of long-term trolling has no place on our 'pedia. But I want to make sure it has consensus, so, what are your thoughts? Grandmasterka 03:07, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not neutral on this, as he and I chat on my talk page. I've seen him do disruptive things, but don't follow him around, so I evidently don't know the worst of it, but he's always seemed basically OK to me. He appears to contribute at least semi-productively at, for example, State terrorism and the United States (I don't follow that article much, so I can't quantify it more than that, but he seems to be working with other editors there).

If I was to talk with him about his future here, as someone he seems to respect, what would you like me to say beyond:

1. removing lists of WP users from his off-wiki page,
2. letting the SSP run its course without following life.temp around,
3. perhaps some kind of mentorship (if he's open to it, which I suspect, but don't know, he might be open to).

Again, I haven't followed his every move, but from what I know of him, the descriptions above seem a little too harsh, and (again acknowledging my COI here), indef blocking seems like too much. --barneca (talk) 03:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

As it happens, Igor and I have gotten along in our interactions but I had grown rather wary, since although we tended to agree more or less on edits, I never seemed to agree with the unencyclopedic reasons he gave for agreeing with me (so I began thinking it might only be luck). Igor's behaviour as outlined above, about which I became aware only lately, is utterly blockable. However, the other day, he seemed to take my thoughts on his uncivil comments about others to heart. Hence, I strongly hope Igor at least shares his thoughts about his own behaviour before someone drops an indef block upon him. Gwen Gale (talk) 03:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• Hi Barneca & Gwen - not to throw water on your (and indeed our) general AGF principles but Barneca, Igor has been through this process of requesting he listen to someone he respects before. He has a history of jumping from one person he respects to another. See here for example his last ANI thread Gwen his "point taken" comment (like the one you diff) are exactly what he does every time he gets into hot water like this - for example this one where he apologises for being dickish after appearing to post an incorrect signature, or this one where another editor provides a very detailed summary as to why his editing is problematic and Igor thanks him for the evaluation but then continues to edit in the same style. Given that I have been watching his history for some months I hope you will understand why I support absolutely an indefinite block ... and if I was not attempting to remain non-proprietary at this time because he has slightly involved me in this issue by including my name in a rather cowardly off-wiki attack - I would do it myself.--VS ^talk 05:02, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, at least I understand why I'd gotten wary. I see strong support here that Igor knows he's using this account for something other than building an encyclopeda. Gwen Gale (talk) 05:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with VS's take on this. Igor tends to act as if he respects someone and is taking in their advice, but when it comes to practice he ignores it. Then, if pressed, he bites back. Just like everyone thinks when they first encounter him I used to believe that Igor genuinely wanted to be mentored, but I no longer hold that belief. I think he's going to keep on doing what he does despite what anyone tells him. He's not interested in changing -- but he will act like he is, just to get on people's good sides. Equazcion •✗/C • 06:07, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

That is an excellent summary of my experience with this editor. Jehochman ^Talk 06:10, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Just do it. We don't need to subject good-faith contributors to this nonsense any longer. Some people are here to write, others notso much. --Haemo (talk) 06:23, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone done an Rfc then, (on Igor)? Wouldn't that be a reasonable procedure, and require two (2) users to endorse it, that they had tried and failed to resolve particular issues. (Not for or against, if there is evidence of particular transgressions that other editors wish to pursue.) --Newbyguesses (talk) 08:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• Huh? Why in heavens name would be doing a request for comment? This is the appropriate procedure for transgressions to be considered and dealt with by Administrators--VS ^talk 10:03, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor said something yesterday that implied he wasn't going to participate in "life.temp's thread". If true, he may not know an indef block is being considered; I've notified him that he might want to say something here. How he handles that response will strongly affect my own opinion on whether this is the correct thing to do. Like I said, I haven't been following his every move, so it's possible the "mild" disruption I've seen myself has actually been significantly more. But based on my interaction with him, I'm just surprised. --barneca (talk) 10:44, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• Maybe it's just me, but I'm just seeing someone frustrated, who wants to call a spade a spade but feels he is prevented from doing so by the bureaucracy here (don't deny it...we all know it is overwhelming for newcomers). I would like to see an RFC, with specific issues raised (and hopefully dealt with, if he can be convinced to participate in good faith) before the banhammer is applied. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 10:54, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The guy nicknamed himself "Igor the Troll." He registered igorthetroll.com. He keeps a list of articles he's edited titled "Internet Trolling." And here we are trying to figure out if he is a troll. I mean...gee. Life.temp (talk) 11:14, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• Wants to call a spade a spade? What does he want to say that he's been prevented from saying? Igor's behavior hasn't exactly struck me as reserved. From what I've seen he's been rather open, and overly so.

• You're missing the point. This user has been given constructive criticism before. It's no longer a matter of identifying the problematic behavior and communicating it to him. That's been tried many times, by many different people, many of whom Igor thanked and came back to with further questions and praise. But all the while he never actually took any of the advice he was given. If you started an RFC for Igor, he'd say he's sorry a few times and tell everyone how much he appreciates their help, and then keep on doing what he does. More dispute resolution would just delay the inevitable. Igor has been the subject of extensive community discussion before, and he's been given advice, warnings, and finally ultimatums as a result. It's all been done. There's no reason reason to go through it all over again expecting different results.

• Besides which, an RFC, being a "request for comment", would be redundant with this discussion. We've got all the comments we need right here. Whether this discussion were carried out at ANI or RFC makes no difference, and this one is already started, so there's no point in beginning anew. If you have thoughts about Igor that you would have expressed at RfC, please feel free to state them here. It's all pretty much the same. Equazcion •✗/C • 11:41, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

• Exactly stated - Equazcion - Of course one of the problems is that only those editors that have spent time over many months trying to understand and assist Igor actually have the background to know what damage he is doing to the project. To see that damage extending to off-wiki sites compounds the evidence. Quite frankly drive by comments from editors that have not experienced this editor's real reason for being here or who have not checked through all or at least a large quantity of his edits are not of any assistance because this is the very game that Igor hopes the community will play on his behalf.--VS ^talk 11:53, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• No, comments from "outsiders" is pretty much the point of WP:ANI. Otherwise it's just a big self-reinforcing echo chamber. --barneca (talk) 11:59, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• No, it was not my suggestion to not allow "outsider" comments Barneca - it was my suggestion to editors not to comment unless that editor had made him/herself very familiar with Igor's editing history. I think you actually were the first above to suggest similarly that such a lack of familiarity makes any comment less than complete?--VS ^talk 12:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• Comments from outsiders are appreciated, but educated comments based on an examination of the editor's past contributions and exchanges is what would truly be helpful. There are some cases at ANI that are glaringly obvious to "outsiders" and therefore might not require such an in-depth look. This unfortunately isn't one of them. The fact that this user acts so outwardly-agreeable is part of the point here. Drive-by commenters who don't look any deeper than that and come to the obvious conclusion that this is a misunderstood soul looking to reach out to someone are just perpetuating the very problem we're attempting to address. Equazcion •✗/C • 12:08, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Igor's been up on AN/I before, and I've commented on him before. Equazcion has it about right. Igor plays games. I'm one in the 'supports a community ban' column. ThuranX (talk) 12:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I tried to stay away from this mess at ANI, because I do not think it is the right place to address all these issues, but I was requested to comment here. A lot of these has been started because the article anti-Americanism, but some of it goes back even before this article. Who is right and who is worng and why who did what is not a simple thing to address. I really feel ANI, fuels drama, and no good to Wikipedia project and all its editors. I feel all the conserns need to be addressed in proper venues of dispute resolution. Igor Berger (talk) 15:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor, none of this has anything to do with content dispute resolution and it seems to have been going on for much longer than since you began editing anti-Americanism. Either way, I don't understand why you're not responding to all these things being said about you. Have you given this any thought? Is there anything you can do to skirt stirring up these kinds of complaints about your behaviour from now on? Gwen Gale (talk) 16:06, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Gwen, I think ANI is the wrong place to address these conserns. Why has this escalated to this wikidrama in the first place? Could it be that dispute resolutions raised by me about editors and editors conserned with me were not addressed in proper dispute resolution venues? But yes, with regards to your consern, I will do my best not to flame the situation and be extremly civil in talking to other editors to address any problems that I or they may have. Igor Berger (talk) 16:33, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Why do you say talking about it here is wikidrama? Gwen Gale (talk) 17:13, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Because it flames things up, instead of addressing editors' conserns! There are times when ANI works but it really needs to be NPOV, or it gets derailed to a point where editors are playing football with one editor, using him as a ball. Then the audiance just jumps on the bandwagon, and more wikidrama. It is not healthy psychologically for anyone, and does not fix problems, but just brushes things under the rug. Also right now there are no WP:DIFFs but just accusations. I prefer to address all accusations in a more humane - stable - not flamed - atmosphere like RFC/U Igor Berger (talk) 17:53, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

There many diffs to your edits in this thread. Why did you say there aren't any? Gwen Gale (talk) 17:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

(undent)Ok, not to rehash every thing from scratch and go into a circular debate, what in particular would you like me to address? Igor Berger (talk) 18:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

If you refering to the 3 points that admin Barneca raised, I agree to all 3 of them. Igor Berger (talk) 18:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

You didn't answer my question about the diffs. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I feel the case for harassment of User:Life.temp has not been made. I filled an SSP report on him and Wiki-Etiquettes report. Because I found his behavior on article anti-Americanism problematic. I even came to you to ask for help because I could not get anyone to addres the issue accept of the editors involved in editing the article anti-Americanism. But those editor were having the same problem with the editor. We have all tried to talk to the editor about AA but he is taking it all as personal. If he feels that I have harassed him in anyway, I would like to apoligize to him for that. We are not here, to push anyone off the project. Like it says, "Wikipedia is a free online encyclopedia that anyone can edit" Igor Berger (talk) 18:59, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor, I've asked you twice why you said "right now there are no WP:DIFFs" in this thread when in truth there are many. Twice you haven't answered me. Instead, you've made non specific agreements and apologies with no reasoning or acknowledgement behind them to show you have any understanding of others' worries or a wish to follow up on them by swaying your behaviour. This is spot on the kind of thing these editors have been unhappy about with you. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:09, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Gwen, this is my POV that the diffs to Lifi.temp harassment acquisitions have not been provided. But everyone has there own POV. Were the diffs supporting my behavior which is disapproved by some editor provided? I do not know, I was not referring to that. Igor Berger (talk) 19:16, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Shall I take these answers as an acknowledgement that you didn't bother to read this thread before replying to it? Gwen Gale (talk) 19:20, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I read the first part, dealing with acquisitions of harassment, the other part I did not read in full. It is a bit hard to read this long thread. That is why I proposed to address in RFC/U. Igor Berger (talk) 19:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

(undent)Anyway, I like to apologize to any editor who thinks my behavior is not appropreate.I do not wish the community to see me in bad light. Igor Berger (talk) 19:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

What are you apologizing for? Gwen Gale (talk) 19:20, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

If some editors feel my behavior is not appropriate I need to respect what they saying and not beat the dead horse trying to prove them wrong. If editors have consern about another editor's behavior that editor needs to think why they have consern and try to fix that. Igor Berger (talk) 19:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment My take is that Igor would like to get along with what he's been doing (and hopes any other editors will "think why they have consern [sic] and try to fix that"). I think one "fix" might be a preventative block until Igor is more willing or able to articulate what he's apologizing for. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

It remains the case that I'm interested to know why/how I'm in a conflict with this user (as he seems to think). WilyD 19:57, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Wily, my apology to you for ever putting you on that list. We never had any contact between each other. I am trully sorry for atracting any negative attention to you. Igor Berger (talk) 20:01, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor why did you put him on an off-wiki hate-list when you'd never even had contact with him? Gwen Gale (talk) 20:03, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

It was because of a comment I read. The whole list is childish and stupid on my part. It is a disgrace to me and to Wikipedia. I created this list when I first started editing regularly Wikipedia and since then I have learned a lot about Wikipedia. And have had myself put on sily lists. I apologize to all editors who I have put on the list. I think any list talking about Wikipedians are bad taste and immature. Igor Berger (talk) 20:11, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I see. Why is it still up? Gwen Gale (talk) 20:16, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

(e/c) It's on a wiki, right? You could just delete it right now if you wanted to, right? That would be an excellent move; not to escape consequences, but because having that list is wrong, and not wise. --barneca (talk) 20:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I did not want it to look like I am trying to hide something and refactor to make myself look good! I did a bad thing and I will remove it right now. Igor Berger (talk) 20:20, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I removed everyone from the list. Igor Berger (talk) 20:26, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Igor, but I'm starting to think that Gwen's "take" on this a little up the page might make sense. An indef block, not the "infinite" kind but the "until you're unblocked" kind, might make sense, where "out of the spotlight" (to use Igor's phrase), on his talk page, we can clarify what concerns really have to be addressed before unblocking. "willing or able to articulate what he's apologizing for", as it were. This solution, I would grudgingly support. A "ban", no. To me, a ban implies someone isn't welcome. I think Igor is welcome if he alters his behavior.

But in any case I think at this stage an RfC is going to turn into a mirror of this thread, and I don't think it's the solution. let's deal with it here and now. --barneca (talk) 20:25, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Barneca, I am not trying to shrug my responsibility or say my behavior is good. But when someone comes and say your behavior is bad, it is hard to understand what is bad, unless you say. Igor this is bad, please correct it. Then I know what I need to fix. Like when I was asked not to post at ANI for 30 days, even after the 30 days I have not posted unless it is conserns me. So I do not close my ears, and think I know it all. I listen to my peers when they advise me and talk to me, instead of saying, "bad Igor" Igor Berger (talk) 20:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] To ban or not, part deux

This kind of exchange is part of the problem. It doesn't get anywhere, because Igor isn't giving any actual answers. Take this sample from above:

Why do you say talking about it here is wikidrama? Gwen Gale

Because it flames things up, instead of addressing editors' conserns! There are times when ANI works but it really needs to be NPOV, or it gets derailed to a point where editors are playing football with one editor, using him as a ball. Then the audiance just jumps on the bandwagon, and more wikidrama. It is not healthy psychologically for anyone, and does not fix problems, but just brushes things under the rug." Igor berger

When you ask Igor to address something, he responds (if these can be called responses) by throwing around common phrases, big words, and most of all, policy abbreviations, most of which don't even apply to the current situation. "Neutral point of view" is about writing articles, and has nothing to do with discussions. On the contrary, everyone is encouraged to express their POVs during a discussion. That would be true no matter where it took place. ANI is just a venue. It doesn't cause any more drama than any other place. Talk here, Igor, because this is where the discussion began. It would be the same discussion, inducing the same level of "psychological health" and equally "addressing editors' concerns" no matter where it took place. A discussion likewise does not "sweep things under the rug" -- it of course does the opposite of that, airing things out in the open -- and again, the venue in which it takes place does not determine its level of under-rug sweepage. Equazcion •✗/C • 21:06, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I am welcome to a discussion no matter where it takes place. I am glad you want to discuss thing with me. And have always welcomed it at my talk page. Please tell me one point at a time what is it about my behavior as a Wikipedia editor that conserns you. Igor Berger (talk) 21:28, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor, looking at your edit history I often get a feeling you've looked over many talk and project pages, memorized some Wikipediaish jargony stuff and other catch phrases, then jumbled it all up, to later use as a kind of easy shorthand when replying to other editors, in the hope this would make you seem knowledgeable and experienced. The pith is, since this method doesn't even begin to help you talk with other editors in any meaningful or helpful way, they take it as game playing or disruption. What do you think about that? Gwen Gale (talk) 21:40, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Please answer completely separately from Gwen's question: Igor, are you willing to accept a mentor assigned by the community - yes or no? Franamax (talk) 21:49, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I did try to keep this separate, guys, and in deference to Gwen's question. Since both have been artfully-replied-to, I'll ask mine again: community appoints mentor, Igor accepts, one more chance; community declines or Igor declines or mentorship fails, Igor faces a ban. Has this actually been tried? Can the previous mentor please comment? This is the last step before a ban and should have one spin around the block. Franamax (talk) 22:25, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd personally rather hear an answer to Gwen's question. Igor has always been outwardly willing to accept mentorship from the community -- he's had an adoption userbox posted on his userpage for as long as I can remember -- but mentoring has been tried and has never solved anything, as has been described repeatedly and at length above. Gwen is steering this in the right direction. Her question addresses the issue head-on. Equazcion •✗/C • 22:00, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

I'd add that the mentorship issue has been addressed by Igor before who has been asking to be both an adopter and adoptee for many months (he considered himself a senior editor from very early in his wiki involvement), but when a well meaning senior editor tried to assist by pointing out the illogical nature of this Igor attacked him for trolling.--VS ^talk 22:07, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I am willing to accept mentor, and I was hoping to get one long time ago. I have a user box saying user looking to be atopted. I think I found an experience admin editor who might be interested in mentoring me. I would need to talk to him about this. Now the hard part, Gwen's question. Yes I agree with Gwen, just reading policy and then spiting it out, is problemtatic. At the end of the day, it is plain English, not policy that constitute communication. Igor Berger (talk) 22:13, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor, getting you to agree with Gwen was not the point of her question. You need to address this, as it is at the center of the issue. How do you think her assessment applies to your past behavior? If you agree that shes accurately described what you've been doing, how do you explain that? And what will you do differently in the future? Equazcion •✗/C • 22:21, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think working with a mentor will help me figure out what I am doing that is wrong. As you are aware, I came to you asking for advice on anti-Americanism but you really never talked to me. So I just kep adding what I though were problems to that section on your talk page but never got a definitive recommendation. Pretty much I had to read your mind, and guess as to what to do based on your actions on anti-Americanism article. Igor Berger (talk) 22:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• Igor, why do you also then have a user box that indicates your belief that you are also a senior editor?--VS ^talk

This user has been given constructive criticism before. -- actually have the background to know what damage he is doing -- very familiar with Igor's editing history. -- Educated comments based on an examination of the editor's past contributions and exchanges is what would truly be helpful.

How about some [[DIFFs] (of Igor's bad contribbs. to articles, etc. in this discussion, before blocking/banning is enacted, please. --Newbyguesses (talk) 22:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• [EC]Have a look at the diffs that are provided already Newbyguesses - from the most recent that I just gave through to his last ANI and then the one above where I linked to where another editor provides a very detailed summary as to why his editing is problematic and Igor thanks him for the evaluation but then continues to edit in the same style. That will give you a start.--VS ^talk 22:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, for instance, this edit as of 13:40, 22 November 2007 to Igor's User page was not good, [73], (added experienced wikipedian), and this Diff [74] was problematical also, (in user:space). --Newbyguesses (talk) 22:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Adding both user boxes of looking to be adopted and wanting to adopt was and is, that I need help, but no one came to adopt me; Why I want to adopt other users, is because I do know something and maybe able to help other users. Igor Berger (talk) 22:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] To ban or not, part trois

Okay - now that we are back on track Igor - can you please give a detailed answer to Gwen's question?--VS ^talk 22:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• Igor you have just added to Equazcion that Well, I think working with a mentor will help me figure out what I am doing that is wrong. however when editor MKoltnow provided you with a very very detailed explanation of exactly what you were doing wrong - you did not seem to adjust your editing style in anyway. How do you explain that?--VS ^talk 23:02, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

  Well it was a good evaluation and I thanked the editor. But he did not come around to help me work with the problems. If he would have gave me one point at a time a discuss that point with me, maybe I could have fixed the problem. But he brought me a full plate and it was hard to digest. Igor Berger (talk) 23:09, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Earlier you had said you found this thread hard to read. Now you're saying that you can't take in more than one thing at a time. Do you think building an encyclopedia from reliable sources on a skeinish, open, highly threaded website like Wikipedia is something you can handle? Gwen Gale (talk) 23:14, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• To respond to the anti-americanism comment, Igor, I didn't respond to you because I along with EL_C had previously asked that you not go around like a messenger, delivering news to people on what's going on at articles -- which you seemed to agree to stop doing at the time, but then you continued. So I wasn't going to encourage that practice by responding. I did attempt to help out with the dispute at the anti-Americanism article though -- and all the while you kept on posting news about it on my talk page. Please don't dwell on this though -- answer VS's concerns now. Equazcion •✗/C • 23:07, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

An individual named "Igor the Troll" started a Google Groups thread called WikiPedia has undercover FBI and CIA agents as editors because he was blocked for 31 hours. This was right after VirtualSteve blocked Igor for 31 hours. Text of message: I was recently attacked and blocked from editing for 31 hours because I added a video link about Prescott Bush the gradfather of George W. Bush being pro Hitler and anti FDR. Does this seem like a thread started by someone interested being mentored? Life.temp (talk) 23:07, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I think we've got enough evidence of off-wiki attacks as a result of blocks. Thanks Life.temp, but dwelling on these is not constructive. Equazcion •✗/C • 23:10, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Likewise. Gwen Gale (talk) 23:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Punctuation - I brought up the question of community-appointed mentorship, it's yes or no and needs no comment. VS' original question is now being obscured:

"Okay - now that we are back on track Igor - can you please give a detailed answer to Gwen's question?" Franamax (talk) 23:14, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

community-appointed mentorship yes Gwen question, I thought I answered it. Can you guide me a bit what I missed. Igor Berger (talk) 23:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes you did answer:

Yes I agree with Gwen, just reading policy and then spiting it out, is problemtatic. At the end of the day, it is plain English, not policy that constitute communication. Igor Berger (talk) 22:13, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Then I said:

Igor, getting you to agree with Gwen was not the point of her question. You need to address this, as it is at the center of the issue. How do you think her assessment applies to your past behavior? If you agree that shes accurately described what you've been doing, how do you explain that? And what will you do differently in the future?

So let's start from there. Equazcion •✗/C • 23:22, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

To restate it for convenience: Igor, looking at your edit history I often get a feeling you've looked over many talk and project pages, memorized some Wikipediaish jargony stuff and other catch phrases, then jumbled it all up, to later use as a kind of easy shorthand when replying to other editors, in the hope this would make you seem knowledgeable and experienced. The pith is, since this method doesn't even begin to help you talk with other editors in any meaningful or helpful way, they take it as game playing or disruption. What do you think about that? Gwen Gale Equazcion •✗/C • 23:18, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

• and this relates to Gwen's second question as above Earlier you had said you found this thread hard to read. Now you're saying that you can't take in more than one thing at a time. Do you think building an encyclopedia from reliable sources on a skeinish, open, highly threaded website like Wikipedia is something you can handle? --VS ^talk 23:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Makes sence with refernces to WP:Social engineering Internet essay that I wrote. Yes it makes me look foolish. Igor Berger (talk) 23:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

We need a detailed answer to this whole question Igor! Can I ask that everyone sits back now to wait for a few minutes for Igor's answer before adding any more questions or comments, please--VS ^talk 23:23, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

(VS)(ec) Yes I can. When dealing with direct question, I can answer them. But if you just put 10 questions to me and do not come back to talk about them, how I suppose to respond to you? Igor Berger (talk) 23:25, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

(VS)Can you in your own words ask me the question? Because I thought I answered it to Gwen. Igor Berger (talk) 23:28, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Igor. Y'all, don't you see what's happening here? Gwen Gale (talk) 23:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• I do Gwen and I have seen it countless times before - do we really need any more discussion - I have much better things to do on Wiki?--VS ^talk 23:31, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• Yeah I'm getting that deja-vu-all-over-again feeling too. No, we don't need any more discussion. I believe the time has come to act. Equazcion •✗/C • 23:47, 16 Apr 2008 (UTC)

• Ban, the shitlist is the straw that convinces me he's not here to be constructive. Sceptre ^(talk) 23:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
• Having followed this since early January, this is a very intelligent guy who either doesn't get it; adapts slowly; or has a very clear and amusing plan. Either last-chance mentorship by someone who won't tolerate obfuscation, or ban. Franamax (talk) 00:13, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
• So that my opinion is clear - and also as having been following the progress of this editor for months - Ban.--VS ^talk 00:16, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
• I regretfully believe it's time for an indef block for disruptive behavior, with the continuing possiblity of discussion on their talk page. A "ban", implying not even being able to edit their own talk page and being, in a sense, persona non grata, is something I continue to strongly oppose. --barneca (talk) 00:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Given the fact that an indef-block would likely only be lifted with an agreement to mentorship, are you willing to assume that role? Franamax (talk) 00:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

At the risk of getting a giant "I told you so" from many people here doen the line, yes. If Igor is blocked, as long as he is not also unreasonably prevented from editing his own talk page, I'll try to mentor him there. If I feel we've reached a point where returning to Wikipedia editing would be productive, I'll bring it up at WP:ANI. If I ever reach a point where I don't think my time is being spent productively, then I'll quit, and unless he can find someone else, he'll be effectively banned. Igor has accepted the idea of a mentorship arrangement on my talk page: [75]. --barneca (talk) 00:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Since Barneca's willing to try, I support his suggestion of mentoring Igor on his talk page. Gwen Gale (talk) 01:06, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

• I haven't seen any progress in this user since the first similar ANI thread. Instead I see the same behavior repeated over and over again. Mentorship and further discussion would be a mistake, in my opinion, as it would just give this user a further forum to do what he does -- drag out painful and dramatic discussions until everyone loses interest. I'm quite certain my opinion is already clear, but I haven't actually said the word yet, so ban. Equazcion •✗/C • 00:24, 17 Apr 2008 (UTC)
• BanBlock indef for disruption, with mentoring on talk page. This user's edit history and his answers in the above thread give me no hint a mentor would be of any help. However, Barneca has said he is willing to try. Gwen Gale (talk) 00:32, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, User:Equazcion's attitude is plain, and obviously reasonable, since Equazcion has previously spent considerable effort in attempting to solve the problem there is with Igor, and their communications. 10 Apr 2008 (UTC). If User:Igorberger is "blocked", that is not a "ban". I haven't been on Igor's talkpage, though Igor has messaged to user talk:newbyguesses, about wikipedia:essays, not articles. I do not know the extent (it was mentioned) or background nor a lot of the details of Igor's accusations about the other user, subject to the original wikiquette alert by Igor which started off this AN/I thread. I think Igor can contribute productively, maybe a shortish "block", with continued clue-ing on the talk-page, is the best option at this time, though (I am not an admin) I wouldn't do it, apologies to those Users whose opinions differ. --NewbyG (talk) 00:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

• Okay I can see the merit of an indefinite block and some considerable question and answer tutelage under Barneca's guidance where Igor can only edit his talk page until Barneca is as absolutely certain as he can be that Igor is going to edit appropriately. Also because Barneca will in effect be the only one to unblock - I am willing to block indefinitely now (because this will be a consensus decision and thus there should be no concern over COI by my doing so. If I get a couple of agreements I will act now - thoughts please?--VS ^talk 01:25, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Normally COI would be an issue, but consensus here is nearly unanimous, seems silly to wait patiently for some other admin to come along. --barneca (talk) 01:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I've been endorsing a ban for a while here. Someone just do it already. --Haemo (talk) 01:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Umm, I think we're talking now about the anonymous editor above offering to indef-block and Barneca is the soft-hearted potential sucker on the line? Agree to that. Franamax (talk) 01:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Please do it now, I don't think anyone will make much of a fuss so long as he's blocked and Barneca's watching his talk page. Gwen Gale (talk) 01:25, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

• And now done folks - a big thanks to Barneca for putting his time and energy on the line, and a big hope that Igor will actually use this opportunity.--VS ^talk 01:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

• Gulp. --barneca (talk) 01:30, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Barneca, I'm impressed that someone went for my last-ditch argument. Read the history carefully and watch out, but all power to you, save a good one for the team if you can! :) Franamax (talk) 01:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.