Talk:Mourid Barghouti

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The bio. inf. that I have added all comes from his book: "I saw Ramallah". I do not have the English version available; I have instead used a Norwegian translation: "Jeg så Ramallah". He gives his birth-date there as 8.7.1944, however, I am uncertain to whether this refer to the European or the US type of date; ie. I simply do not know whether his date of birth is 8.th of July (=European style) or if it is 7.th of August (=U.S. style). To anybody who knows: please add the exact date...Thanks. Regards, Huldra 01:40, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

When he left Ramallah in the '60s, he was a Jordanian citizen, living in country called Jordan. When the six day war was over, he was still a Jordanian citizen, and could return to Jordan, but possibly not to the area occupied by Israel. To say he was unable to return to his homeland is therefor incorrect. The part about living apart from his wife is editorializing by you. They did not have to live apart - they chose to do so. Nothing prevented his wife from lliving with him in Budapest - she preffered keeping her job in Cairo to joining her deported husband. Isarig

You are quite right in saying that he was a Jordanian citizen, futhermore: I don´t think anybody has questioned the information that he could not return to the area occupied by Israel. When I changed the word from "hometown" to "homeland" it was because: A: there was much more than just one town he could not return to, e.g. reading his book it is clear that Deir Ghassana is as much as a "hometown" for him as Ramallah. B: "homeland" does not nessessarely imply a country, as a legal status. (There you are quite correct in saying that it was not that). See definition in homeland: ...it is "the concept of the territory to which one belongs". It was in this sense of the word that I used it. Perhaps we should write "...was prevented from returning to his homeland"? C: finally, I actually borrowed the exact sentence from the description of the book on abebooks.com....

I realize you borrowed that description from abebooks.com - that's part of the reason I object to that characterization, since the description comes from the author and/or his publisher, and is POV. How a bout a neutral "was prevented from returning to the West Bank"? Isarig

Actually, I did a few edits in connection with the Balfour Declaration, 1917 last year, and, as I´m sure you know, in that connection the difference between home, homeland and state are very significant. I therefore got quite well acquinted with the definition of these words, as given on WP. I therefore realized that the way the author and/or his publisher used the word "homeland" (say, in abebooks ) was perfectly in accordance with the way WP used/defined the word..... Anyway, having said that, I now also realize that not everybody reading the word "homeland" immediately understand that this concept includes more than just what is included in the word "state". I therefore have no great problem using "the West Bank" instead, perhaps as: "was prevented from returning to his home on the West Bank"? Huldra 21:09, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

As for living apart, that they "...chose to do so. Nothing prevented his wife from lliving with him in Budapest - she preffered keeping her job in Cairo to joining her deported husband." To me this sound quite "belitteling" of both of the work of Radwa Ashour ...and of women in general. As if a womans work is just a sort of luxery, that she can "choose to" do without. Not very important, in other words. Your editorializing here is extremely foreign to me. Regards, Huldra 18:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you find my changes editorialzing or belittling. They are neither. They are a neutral and factually correct description of the situation post Barghouti's deportation from Egypt - they subsequently lived apart for 17 years. It is factually incorrect that they were forced to do so - since his wife could join him at any time. I am not passing moral judgement on what she should have done - but we have to recognize that choosing to work in a particular place is a choice. She could have chosen to give up her job in Cairo and join her husband, she could have tried to find an equivalent job in Budapest, Barghouti could have tried to find a job closer to Cairo - but they didn't. To claim the only choice open to hem was to live apart, as the sentence "...had to live apart.." implies is both false, and POV. Note that as a couple they also moved around - they 'left Kuwait for Egypt less that a year after marrying'.

I´m afraid I simply don´t agree here. First: yes, they moved around early in their marriage...but that was before their son was born. B. was expelled from Egypt when his son was just a few months old. I´m sure you´ll agree with me that moving around only as 2 adults, and moving around with a child are two very different things. The book makes it very clear that, among other things, it was the need for giving their son a stable upbringing that determined their "choice". (B. was not in Budapest all the time, just for a long time). (But I would agree that the article does not give a good resyme of the book on this point). Also, the words, as they stand now, gives a completely wrong impression in my mind; now it sounds (to my ears) as if they wanted to live apart (Indeed, the only couples that I know that have lived for long period aparts are couples where "some" "marital difficulties" have been present....) I can´t think of a good alternative just now; must probably rewrite and add more about the family situation. Regards, Huldra 21:09, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

You are moralizing and identifying with a POV. Yes, I agree that moving around as 2 adults is easier than moving with a young child, but the fact that it is perhaps inconvenient to move with a young child does not make living apart the only choice. To re-iterate: they made a choice to keep the child in one place, as a way of providing a stable upbringing. an equally valid choice would have been to move to Budapest as a family, as a way of providing a young child with a father figure who is present in the home during the child's formative years. You identify with the first choice, other may ientify with the other. It is still a choice. It would be accurately be defined as "had to live apart" only if Egypt both deported B. and prevented his wife from leaving. That was not the case. Isarig