Talk:Julian May

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[edit] Julian May and the Cyberpunks

Re: the addition of the last paragraph to the Bio section of the article. The current wording of the paragraph seems to suggest that the argument as presented is original research. Is there a source that we could use to rephrase the paragraph to make it look encyclopedic, i.e. "In his book XYZ, science fiction critic John Smith argued that Julian May and the cyberpunks had ABC in common"? Ahasuerus 14:20, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't see how anyone could consider Julian May to be a "cyberpunk" author. I mean, read the cyberpunk article; that in no way resembles May's Pliocene Exile or Galactic Milieu books at all. (I haven't read any of her other stuff so I can't say if it describes them any better. Judging by the skimming I've done of them, however, I'd say no.) While she does have some fairly detailed scientific and technological stuff in these two series, it doesn't approach the almost fetishistic level that many cyberpunk works do. And using May's objections to "flawed anti-heroes" to say that she is cyberpunk seems counter-intuitive to me; all the cyberpunk I've ever read (admittedly not a whole lot) is full of exactly that kind of character. This paragraph just screams "original (and poorly-supported) research". I see no reason why it should remain but I'll wait and see what others think before excising it. It'd be great if the original author could come up with some solid research to document his/her claims. --Patrick T. Wynne 23:29, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I won't comment on the quality of the research here, however, as the WP:NOR policy states, WP is a repository of encyclopedic information and not a place for posting original research, good, bad or ugly. For example, when I was doing S.P. Meek, I used a 1930 quote (Harry Bates's "among some of the finest writers of fantasy in the world") and then a 1994 one (Samuel R. Delany's "unbelievably bad") to support the notion that Meek's work was once well regarded but is "of strictly historical interest" now. If the original contributor can find books or articles that make the same argument that is being put forward here, then we can certainly include it under "Critism and interpretations" or some such. Otherwise it will have to move to the author's Web page. Ahasuerus 00:02, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

The editor who added this paragraph, 24.66.178.46, has been now invited to stop by and contribute to this discussion. Ahasuerus 06:56, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I contributed the material which links Julian May to the cyberpunk movement of the early 1980s. I admit that my argument is speculative, and, if the powers that be feel that it does not belong in a scholarly article, then it should go. However, I have drawn my conclusions from original material, or as original material as it is possible for me to get my hands on.

The paragraph in question may very well belong in a scholarly article. WP, however, is an encyclopedia and not a place to publish scholarly articles, no matter how well researched. As WP:NOR exlains:

Original research is a term used on Wikipedia to refer to material added to articles by Wikipedia editors that has not been published already by a reputable source. In this context it means unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, and ideas; or any new interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, or arguments that appears to advance a position or, in the words of Wikipedia's co-founder Jimbo Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation."

And "reputable sources" are defined as:

Reputable publications include peer-reviewed journals, books published by a known academic publishing house or university press, and divisions of a general publisher which have a good reputation for scholarly publications.

In other words, WP simply collects what other people have published on the subject in "reputable sources" (documenting alternative interpretations when applicable) and doesn't publish original research. Unless the argument currently presented in the article has been advanced in one of the "reputable sources" and the source can be cited, we will have to move it to the Talk page as per the WP:NOR policy. Ahasuerus 20:44, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

As I mentioned in my original addition to the Julian May page, in "A Pliocene Companion", there are two interviews conducted with Julian may in which she discusses the generative process for her Pliocene books. I felt she was rather specific about when her first novel in a number of years (which turned out to be "The Many-Colored Land") would become commercially available, and what forces drove her to write it. It seemed to me that these were the same forces which drove the cyberpunk movement, especially since both Julian May and the cyberpunks sought to strip science fiction down to its essence, and move away from the more existentialness which had come to be a feature of 1960s sci-fi.

Further, Ms. May is also fairly unambiguous on the fact that the Galactic Milieu books existed in more or less complete form before the Pliocene books had been written. Thus, I have inferred a link between Ms. May and the cyberpunks on the basis that they both seem to be trying to accomplish the same thing, but in two different ways.

Since I am not terribly facile with the mechanisms of Wikipedia, please feel free to contact me apart from this website, at "[email deleted]".

I agree, alas, that this passage doesn't really belong here, but I have to say I really enjoyed reading it--it rings true for me, contra Patrick T. Wynne above. I've found that May fans tend to divide into people who respond to the fantasy-like aspects and those who respond to the SF worldbuilding. I agree that, viewed as a whole, the Galactic Milieu books have a cyberpunk-like flavor, filtered through a more humanist (or Catholic) sensibility perhaps. So thanks for writing it, and sorry it doesn't really fit into the current encyclopedic framework of the article. (PS: I've removed your email address so it doesn't generate spam for you. It's still in the history if anyone wants to contact you.) · rodii · 02:02, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

As per the discussion above, moving the paragraph in question from the main page over here:

Although largely a matter of speculation, there are reasons to link Julian May with the cyberpunk writers who were also flexing their literary muscles at the same time she returned to the field, the early 1980s. In the interviews with her which were published in "A Pliocene Companion", she gives, as one of her justifications for writing the Saga of Pliocene Exile, a desire to return science fiction to the sorts of entertaining adventure stories she enjoyed when her fandom began. Likewise, it was an aim of the cyberpunk writers to "strip down" science fiction and return it to its roots. Both Julian May and the various cyberpunk writers expressed dismay with, and antipathy towards, the sort of dreamy, existential science fiction of the late 1960s and 1970s. May's biggest onjection was to the flawed anti-heroes which had become popular in the 70s. Like the cyberpunk genre, Julian May's post-1981 science fiction is what may be termed 'hard science fiction': featuring so strong a focus on technology and rational scientific principles that the story could not occur without them...in the case of the Pliocene Exile books, the Guderian tau field generator, while the Milieu books rely on scientifically defined psychic talents. Finally, the Saga appeared in the early 1980s, making it a reasonable assumption that it was influenced by the same social and literary dynamics as those which spawned the cyberpunk genre. Thus, by focusing on the socio-literary forces which inspired the writing involved, it is possible to argue that Julian May is one of the cyberpunks, a possibly-illustrious company which includes William Gibson, Bruce Sterling, and Rudy Rucker. [by 24.66.178.46]

[edit] "See Also" items

Why are there links to "Jesus of Montreal" and "French Canadians"? --SigPig 12:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I questioned this (from the other end) here a while back. The connection is beyond tenuous in my opinion--May "covers religion and French-Canadian culture"--but I didn't feel like disputing it.· rodii · 01:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

At a minimum, shouldn't there be some explanation of the connection in the article? Jonabbey 23:37, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I just came to ask exactly the same question. Since three other people have already commented here, I have been bold and zapped them. Telsa (talk) 17:37, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Birth name

It would be nice if there were a source for May's birth name. A comment in A Pliocene Companion suggests obliquely that it may be Julia Majewski. (She says in an interview that the Saga character Claude Majewski "has the old family name", but that leaves it unclear whether Majewski was her family name, or changed by an ancestor, or perhaps even her mother's maiden name.) Are their any reliable sources for this? 121a0012 15:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)