Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Halo (series)

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[edit] Halo (series)

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I'm nominating this article for featured article because...Nominator...The members of The Halo WikiProject have put a great deal of effort into it. I am nominating on their behalf as we all feel that the article passes the Featured Article Criteria. Thank you. Blackngold29 16:44, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. Great start! I started out enthusiastic about this one because a lot of effort clearly went into the preparation. However, I got bogged down in issues quickly and stopped reading after "Common elements". Examples below illustrate problems with MoS, jargon, and organization. I also stumbled into some basic grammatical problems ("amount" vs. "number") that show a solid copy-edit is still needed. Get a non-gamer and kill the jargon issue at the same time.
  • Needs copy-editing by an MoS stickler. Lots of little problems (ex. "including the upcoming real time strategy game"; should be "real-time")
    • Done I fixed the ones that you addresed and all others that I could find. Blackngold29 05:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • You're dousing the reader in game jargon starting in the lead. Imagine you know nothing about video games but you're reading this because it's featured on the main page. "First-person shooter"? "Console game?"
    • Internal links do not suffice? Blackngold29 15:45, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
    • What I think Black is saying is that we do have internal links, and it kind of breaks up any flow to say "Halo is a first person shooter. First person shooters are games where stuff takes place through the eyes of a character and you blow stuff up." --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 01:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Why hyphenate "technologically-advanced" and not "cybernetically enhanced"?
    • Fixed. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 15:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
  • "The strong sales of the game series have led to a massive Halo franchise." "Massive" sounds a bit POV; would help to have a citation or even a quote of an authoritative source calling it massive.
    • Reworded Blackngold29 05:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • "The main trilogy featured first person shooter gameplay, along with third person vehicular gameplay." Why "featured" when a sentence before you wrote "features"? Also, "main trilogy" has no prior context. You write about Halo 1, 2, and 3 in the lead, but you don't ever call it a "trilogy". In fact, you haven't yet delineated what games comprise the series, which would seem to be required for the lead. I see further down you introduce the main trilogy..
  • "There is also the option to fight ..." Messy.
    • Done Blackngold29 05:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • "Players can carry a certain number of grenades, which can disrupt masses of enemies or flush out entrenched foes; together, this "weapons-grenades-melee" format forms the "Golden Triangle of Halo" gameplay ..." Imagine your grandma reading this.
    • Done Blackngold29 05:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

--Laser brain (talk) 17:46, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

• Comments: As one of the more recent contributors to the article, I don't feel the article is ready for FAC and as Laser brain has pointed there are multiple MoS issues. David and I were working on it in April and had put it up for peer review, but we both got bogged down with other things. I know my time on Wikipedia lately has been sparse and erratic, and I don't really have the time for an FAC of an article that is not ready. Also, I'd hate to see excess strain on already strained reviewers. If David or one of the other major contributors has the time to address issues for FAC, I'll certainly make an effort to do the same. If not, then I'd like to ask for a withdrawal. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 18:06, 30 May 2008 (UTC))

I've got my own FAC right now, but I'll try and help out as much as I can. I think we prolly shoulda done a copyedit before the FAC, but whatever, it's here now. I'll ask around for some outside editors to help, since they'll be able to note more jargon and stuff. Either way it'll wait until tomorrow for me. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 21:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

That's cool. I'll make an effort to address issues as well. Thanks for helping out David. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 21:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC))

• Reply to Guyinblack25:

I have not worked on the article much, but I would be willing to help you address any issues raised. Perhaps some fresh blood will be good for the article. Blackngold29 18:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments

• What makes the following reliable sources?
  • tiedtheleader.com

Have to plead the "interview" card again... it's an audio interview with a voice actor which was conducted by the site, I can't talk about their reliability as they are a gamer's blog with no special credentials. I mean, unless they were got someone to fake the voice of a well-known disc jockey... Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 14:41, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Hm, I'm not convinced, but it might pass muster with others. Leaving this one out for others to decide on their own. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

• • http://games.kikizo.com

Also an interview; the site's about page is here, I've sent them an email like gamecritics below. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 14:41, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

The site's founder responded to my queries (since it's pretty much the same as below, I guess leave for others to check?) ..."Hi David, Kikizo has been active since 1998, formerly under the name GamerWeb and operating as Kikizo since 2003. [...] all information is fact-checked and mistakes are always corrected - major updates and/or corrections to stories/features will be posted as additional updates, rather than rewriting the original piece, and in such cases this is clearly stated." --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 16:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Definitely been doing this too long with David starts predicting my replies before I make them... Yep, leaving it out for others to decide. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

• • http://www.gamecritics.com/feature/preview/halo_xbox/page01.php

They are independent, but they appear reliable: I've sent them an email with queries regarding their content review and editing process, hopefully that will help clear up this one. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 14:41, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

From email correspondence with site owner Chi Kong Lui: "...For our reviews and feature articles, [we do fact-check]. We expected our writers to fact-check and content is reviewed by two [other] editors before publication. [...] absolutely, we would post corrections and retractions if errors are found." --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 19:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Leave this out for other reviewers to decide on their own. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Another comment - You've mixed using the Template:Citation with the templates that start with Cite such as Template:Cite journal or Template:Cite news. They shouldn't be mixed per WP:CITE#Citation templates. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:39, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Still mixed! Ealdgyth - Talk 01:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Ealdgyth, all uses of Template:Citation have been removed. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 06:04, 8 June 2008 (UTC))

Comments

• Most of the other issues have been caught by reviewers already, so I'll focus on one: redundancy.
  • "Some aspects of the SPARTAN Project"
  • "IGN listed it as the number two top Xbox game of all time"
  • "Several spin-off games have also been announced"
  • "He and a few other SPARTAN-II's"

There's definitely others that I missed. You'll probably disagree with at least some of these - that's fine, as long as you can tell me why the words add anything to the sentence. Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 20:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I've gone through and removed all the instances except one I felt was needed for some clarity. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 19:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Oppose

• References do not need to specify that they are in English.
• For page numbers in references, prepend with "p." (or "pp.") when it does not appear automatically.
• "The three main games in Halo series focus on the adventures of the main character, Master Chief." The three main games are mentioned in the lead before this, so they should be reiterated again in the body somewhere before this text.
• "set centuries into" Unlink common words like this one.
• "Evolved[32] Ensemble" Missing a period?
• "'new trilogy' " Use double quotes.

These are a small sample of the issues. Gary King (talk) 19:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Gary, the issues you mentioned above have been addressed except for the "p." in the references. I believe citation style guidelines do not require it unless using Harvard referencing. Any other issues you see? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 15:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC))

I'll strike out for now. Gary King (talk) 16:14, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

• Support - Watched this article for a long time, and it has grown to a formidable article covering every aspect of the Halo franchise. It also meets the requirements and has improved while it has been at FAC. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 23:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

• Further comments - I did another read-through this morning and I'm still not happy with the prose quality and jargon. I didn't have to go far to build a decent list of representative issues. I don't think it's within reach for this nomination period—recommend withdrawing to work on issues. I still maintain that it needs a solid copy-edit by a non-gamer who would likely catch the same issues I am seeing.
  • "In this science fiction setting, the term "Halo" refers to Halo megastructures, large orbital constructions, similar to those first popularized by the 1970 novel Ringworld by Larry Niven, though smaller in scale." Here, you are making a comparison that is quite complex for the reader to understand. They have to go to the Ringworld article, find the information about the "large orbital constructions", then imagine something smaller. Seems like a lot of work.. why not just describe them as they appear in Halo?
  • First-person shooter and game console are not wikilinked in the lead. Non-gamers will be lost.
    • Done Blackngold29 17:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • The "with <noun> being" construction found in "... with Halo being the Microsoft Xbox's "killer app" and other places is poor grammar; these need to be revised. First paragraph of the body has "with the player experiencing"; check throughout.
  • The lead still does not clarify that there is a "main trilogy" until the reader stumbles on "... and soundtracks have been released for the three main games." It should be clear without clicking links that Halo: Combat Evolved is the first game of the trilogy.
    • Done Blackngold29 17:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • "In Halo: Combat Evolved, the player's health is measured in both hit points and a shield which can continually recharge." What is the word "both" doing? More jargon... to most people, a "shield" is a physical device, in which case how does it "regenerate"?
  • "Later games exclusively featured the recharging shield and removed the health bar." Health bar? Isn't that where you buy diet frozen yogurt? Please don't force the reader to click away to find basic context. You haven't even mentioned a health bar yet and you can't take for granted that the reader will associate "hit points" with it.
  • "Rather than creating entirely new maps and geometry ..." What's the difference between "entirely new" and just "new"?
  • "Players can save their games as films and watch these saved films from all angles." I think "video" is a more apt term than "film", perhaps? --Laser brain (talk) 15:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I think I've addressed all your concerns, Laser. I still think it's important to mention Niven's ringworlds, but I shortened the tangent to him and increased the discription. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 22:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

• Question. Should this article be moved to Halo series? It seems more natural to me (I'm not aware of any naming conventions regarding this, though). · AndonicO ^Engage. 01:45, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Yeah there's a naming convention (See point 6 of this). Although I too would prefer the title "Halo series" there isn't consensus for that. James086^{Talk | Email} 02:01, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
    • I believe the rationale behind it is that series are generally referred by just the name. "Do you play Halo?" Though "the Halo series" is used too, but I can't say which one is more common. Several other video game series use the same convention. Kingdom Hearts (series), Crazy Taxi (series), Mana (series), etc. Others, like Age of Empires and Final Fantasy, drop the "(series)" part because they are more well-known than the game that started the series. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 02:16, 12 June 2008 (UTC))
      • Okay then, thanks. · AndonicO ^Engage. 12:47, 12 June 2008 (UTC)