Talk:Dimmu Borgir

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[edit] Italicising

just in regards of discographies should the titles be italics? or should they only italicise in body of text.

I'm not sure if they should or not, but judging by all of the other lists on the page, I think they are in italics to make them look stylish or different, or something along those lines.

Why is it that Sorgens Kammer is on the promo of Stormbåst then?

[edit] Translation

Both the norwegian and the swedish wikipedia say that the icelandic meaning of "Dimmu Borgir" means "Foggy castle" and not "Dark Castle". And indeed in Swedish Dimma means Fog which is very close to Dimmu. But as I don't know icelandic I thought I should comment it here first. Anyone disagree that Foggy Castle is a better translation ? Cygnus78 22:33, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Then apparently, the Norwegian and Swedish wikipedias are wrong. I'm Icelandic, and the adjective "dimmur" specifically means "dark". Dimmuborgir, the place near Mývatn, is called "dimmu-" because it's made of dark eery looking lava. The adj. "dimmur" can possibly refer to evil, but definately not foggy. Fog in Icelandic, is "þoka". And if a fog is dark, we call it "svartaþoka", litterally meaning "black fog", not dark fog. I therefore see no reason to translate dimmu as foggy. It makes little sense to me as an Icelander. Plus the fact I think the place they named their band after, is not a particularly foggy place anyway.

The word borgir, (usually plural of the word "borg", meaning "city"), in this case means, something like, castles, loads of houses, or things similar to houses. It's a very tough word to properly translate.--Nátthrafn 16:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

From Dimmu Borgir's official Web site:

Pronounced "dim-moo bore-gear", the Dimmuborgir is a large area of unusually shaped lava fields east of Lake Mývatn, on Iceland. The Dimmuborgir area is composed of various caves and rock formations. It would seem that this has been formed from a lava-lake, out of which molten lava flowed and left behind strange formations. The most famous cave being Kirkjan - the Church - high with a large gothic style vault. Dimmu=foggy/dark, Borgir=castle/fortress.

One of the problems with translation is that meanings aren't exact, and words can have more than one meaning. So, technically, while you are correct, I believe the acceptable translation would be "Dark Castle". Cparker 01:16, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Alright, dark castle is good, although translating the word will never bring out the feeling one gets of hearing the original Icelandic name. Two things. One, the band spells the name wrong, but alright, it's actually also correct grammatically. But if they named it after the place, then the name is wrongly spelled. Anyway, two, that from their official website is...bleh. The pronounciation is horribly wrong, at least if this is made according to English pronounciation of how they spelled it, and, dimmu means dark, not foggy (I'm referring to the website, not your comments). A fog can be dark, but dark never means foggy. --Nátthrafn 20:35, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I do disagree

I am Icelandic and live in iceland and Dimmu means indeed dark. "Borgir" current meaning is cities but I think older meanings of the word do include citadels or castle, I will try to find this out. Other forms of Dimmu, is Dimma=Darkness, "Það er dimmt úti"= It is dark outside. Daily use of borg would be like "I live in a city called Reykjavík" = "Ég bý í borg sem heitir Reykjavík" I would also like to point out that "dim-moo bore-gear" isn't excacly the right pronounciation its more like dim-mu(u pronounced like in uncle) bor-gear, is well close enough for normal english spelling.

Excellent! I'm glad we have someone Icelandic who's able to contribute to the page. However, I don't understand what it is you're disagreeing with. Are you disagreeing with my comment? If so, I only copied/pasted that text from the Dimmu Borgir Web site, so you can certainly let them know that they should update their site. :-P Cparker 18:19, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

"Anyone disagree that Foggy Castle is a better translation ? Cygnus78 22:33, 23 November 2005 (UTC)" I was disagreeing to this. I should probably let them know, although "dim-moo bore-gear" sounds excacly like a foreigner would try to see this, which I find kinda funny :)

Ok then it's settled. Not foggy but dark, with the nice sideeffect that it also sounds cooler :) I should probably correct this on the Norwegian and Swedish wikipedia. Cygnus78 23:48, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Another Icelander speaking here, i can confirm that Dimmu Borgir accualy means "Dark Citys" not "Dark Fortresses/Castles" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bjossas (talk • contribs).

[edit] Barker

On Dimmu's official website, they say Nicholas Barker left the band of his own will as he was still living in England and the travel costs were too high. They report it as being amicable. I may have misread it though, so correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree, Barker left the band because he said he wasnt norwegian like the rest of the guys. Thats what i heard and i think the band were disappointed he left cos they liked him and i liked him too, a great drummer.

The formatting was right, but there's a lot of rumors going around about Barker leaving the band. After the recording of Puritanical Euphoric Misanthropia (circa 2001) and Death Cult Armageddon (circa 2003), Barker had been taking plane rides from Great Britain for over two years, which not only amounts of a massive assload of money, but he was always losing time with is family. That's just one rumor I heard flying around, I have no way to cite it, but it seems pretty logical. Mister Deranged 04:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rumours

So someone just made this section and I'm having a difficult time seeing the relevence. Though I don't tend to keep up on rumors, neither of these are exactly noteworthy. If there is some serious doubt about a singer on an album, it should be on the album. The "rumor" about wanting everyone to hear their music isn't exactly special. If they meant that they aren't biased against christianity, that'd be another thing and should be in the main article, with a citation, of course. marnues 02:40, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Satanism in itself is mostly symbolic. Most forms of Satanism use Satan as a symbol not as a literal astral being. Most Satanists are agnostic or atheist.

Read this interview, and maybe you'll see for yourself.

http://www.metalupdate.com/interviewdim.html Bopash4 16:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hellhammer

Everything I see about Hellhammer and Dimmu Borgir is that he was purely a session drummer for the new Stormblast and nothing else. I have tried to find something about this on their official site, but all I can see is that they said they would only use session drummers after Nick left. Though I doubt this is an absolute, I can't find anything to say that Hellhammer is actually in the band. I'll remove him from the list and make sure he is mentioned as a session drummer. marnues 02:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

UPDATE I believe Hellhammer is now the permanent drummer.

I dont know can he recover from his pinched nerve? he needs or has received surgury for it Serve in Heaven or Rule in Hell (talk) 21:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Members

For those who doubted about current members of Dimmu Borgir,follow this link http://www.dimmu-borgir.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16791

And this link tell the year that new members become part of the band. http://www.dimmu-borgir.com/ on "BIO" section Kn hunter 08:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronounciation - Name

Maybe someone who speaks Icelandic or Norwegian or someone with a large knowledge of this band could upload an OGG-Vorbis of the name Dimmu Borgir or refer to a website where this is pronounced.

there's a file in the page, but I can't play it:S I know it reads "dim-moo bore-gear" but how do you spll the G? like in "Gina" or like in "give"? TY

It's like the "g" in "gear". -Iopq 07:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I would say "g" like in "give" in Norwegian, although I have no clue about how it sounds in Icelandic. /Cygnus78 18:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Just a reminder, we still need someone (who speaks Icelandic) to create a OGG of their name.

[edit] Sorgens Kammer

Is it a cover or a ripoff? I mean, when you "cover" a song you supposedly know it is not yours. I'm not attacking Dimmu Borgir, not at all, but you gotta be a litte bit technical about it; if Aarstad used the melody without giving the composer proper credit and the rest of the band thought he had written it, it is not a cover -- or it would star in the 2005 album.

[edit] Sales figures

Would be nice to have some, I heard that Dimmu Borgir sold really well, but I don't have any solid numbers. -Iopq 14:10, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dimmuborgir.ogg >> PRONOUNCIATION FILE DOES NOT WORK

Users: quit reverting until someone reuploads the file, it does not work. --Dexter prog 23:26, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Genre

New Dimmu Borgir is clearly not black metal. No, not even "symphonic" black metal. They may still use the vocals and corpsepaint which are generally known to come with black metal, but they have not been black metal since the mid-late 90s. STOP labeling them any sort of black metal. They are a heavy metal band with black metal influences. Anyone who is going to cry and whinge, arguing that they are black metal, does not know much about black metal. I am about to change it so it says their recent material is heavy metal. Now, for all the people who are going to argue me: don't just change it back to black metal. Just because the band, magazines, and any other idiots who you will meet in real life or on the internet say so, DOES NOT MAKE IT SO. - Isilioth

And just because YOU say they aren't black metal, DOES NOT MAKE IT SO. Your definition of black metal is way too narrow, my friend - the genre is flourishing and diversifying all the time, just as heavy metal has done since its inception. So they have evolved ... so what? Don't be in such a hurry to stifle the growth of the genre! DB are still black metal by any definition that really matters.

You fail to realise black metal is dead. New Dimmu Borgir does not live up to what black metal was about. They dont even 'sound' black metal. I am not trying to be 'kvlt' or anything, i openly admit i enjoy Stormblast, its a good album. You fail to realise how black metal differed from normal heavy metal. Dimmu Borgir is now just heavy metal with black metal-ish vocals. You may say something idiotic like 'they dont sound anything like heavy metal bands like Pantera' or whatever, of course they dont. Theyre not innovative. They are not making any 'development' of the black metal genre. They made a change from black metal to heavy metal. Simple as that. They ARE NOT black metal by any definition that really matters. You know nothing about what black metal was. You think you do. But you dont. Isilioth 14:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Isilioth, I guess I can't continue to argue with you over the genre of current DB until I understand your definition of "black metal". Clearly it differs from mine, and I'd like to know what makes you the ultimate authority on the subject. You have an opinion and that's great, but it's disingenuous for you to attempt to force it on the rest of us when you're clearly in the minority. Last time I checked, DB are still considered black metal both here and at the Allmusic site.

I wouldn't say BM is dead per se, although it is declining. Gorgoroth are still making albums, and I'd say you can't get more BM then them. ≈ The Haunted Angel ^{//The Forest Whispers My Name//} 14:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I know exactly what black metal is, and DB is certainly not pure or raw black metal like Immortal or anything, but I still would say they are symphonic black metal, which already covers the fact that they are not "real" black metal, but are an out spurt/ different form of it. Therefore, to a certain degree, I agree with all of you. Navnløs 17:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Since when does going mainstream determine what a bands genre is? Dimmu IS Symphonic Black MEtal whether you want it to be or not. before you go throwing insults at me like I dont know what black metal is, you better think twice. I listen to bands half of you probably never even heard of. And Dimmu is indeed still symphonic black metal.Why not say Cannibal Corpse are not death metal anymore becuase they are one of the most mainstream Death metal bands around. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.81.87.167 (talk) 02:49, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Nav; Symphonic black metal includes melodic elements - however, I have clarified the genre to show how their earlier works are supposed to be more BM than their later stuff. ≈ The Haunted Angel Review Me! 19:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

ILIKEITSIMPLE says: How can you people call the modern Dimmu Borgir for black metal? Nothing about them (today) is black metal except perhaps Shagraths vocals. Everything else is what you would find/expect from death and doom metal. Dont give me the bullshit that they have evolved, that they're taking black metal to newer heights. If they should evolve then they should keep it within the genre. Changing/Improving the old instead of replacing it. Holding on to important standards. One of them being: Never go mainstream. Keeping it underground and unique has always been a key element within black metal. Dimmu has sold out multiple times and there is a price to pay.

And I dont know about you but ICS Vortex´s Opera vocals isnt very "black". Thats something you would find in a Nightwish song. I dont know if they included it because they thought it sounded good or if they had pressure from the record label saying they had to appeal to a bigger audience to cash in more money. Anyway the Opera vocals alone would be enough for Dimmu to classify as anything else but black metal.

Apart from them going mainstream and adding Opera vocals there is further more that is out of the black metal bounds. All the instruments and their sound has clearly been altered several times and influenced by many other genres to fit a larger audience.

Now dont get me wrong. I support evolution within everything but there has to be standards. Thats what genres are for, keeping music separate. To be honest I truly enjoy Dimmu as a symphonic extreme metal band. They have some lovely tunes. What Im afraid of though, is that some kid will pick up "In Sorte Diaboli" and say: "Wow, this is some really good ("true") black metal. I Love Black Metal!!" without even having a clue who MayheM or Darkthrone are, making a complete ass out of him/herself and Dimmu. Dimmu´s fans has to accept the fact that they have changed and that they belong to something else. The fans should be proud and support the change by referring to the correct genre.

To say that the present Dimmu is black metal is arrogant, ignorant and just shows the lack of knowledge people have about black metal and music in general. Especially when Dimmu THEMSELVES has stated numerous times that they dont consider themselves black metal anymore:

“

We have black metal ingredients and concepts, and what we stand for is kind of black metal-oriented, but I think we have gone beyond that term. It’s still extreme music and can be related to as black metal in many ways, but it’s much more than just black metal.

”

- Interview featuring Shagrath.

"In Sorte Diaboli" and Dimmu is extreme metal (today) and nothing else.

Before answering me please compare "In Sorte Diaboli" with MayheM´s "Ordo Ad Chao" and hopefully you'll notice the difference between "black metal" and black metal. ≈ ILIKEITSIMPLE (talk) 20:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

How about you provide a source, rather than opinion. ≈ The Haunted Angel 21:07, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Personal opinions and statements made directly by the band are worthless as sources. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 21:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Source to what? The interview? I did provide it: http://www.decibelmagazine.com/features/jun2007/dimmuborgir.aspx

Im guessing you where sarcastic there 5th Eye? If not, then what sources matter? Other peoples opinions? The band should know what genre theyre in if anybody? ≈ Ilikeitsimple (talk) 23:07, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

No, I wasn't being sarcastic. You need to read up about what Wikipedia defines as reliable sources. Primary sources and your opinion don't count for anything. Until you source your edits, they will be reverted. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 23:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The band can call themselves whatever they like, doesn't mean it's true. Dani Filth once described Cradle as being "heavy funk". The band's opinion isn't always correct. I have to agree with 5theye completely here. ≈ The Haunted Angel 00:34, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks... however, in comment to your references for the current genres: the genres listed on last.fm are based entirely on user tagging, and can't be used as reliable sources either. Ideally, a published review or third-party biography is preferable. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 02:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I shall keep looking, then! ≈ The Haunted Angel 13:23, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

How about calling it "Extreme-Metal-Call-It-Black-Or-Heavy-Or-Whatever-You-Want-Nobody-Cares-With-Black-Metalish-Themes-And-Lyrics-And-The-Shrieked-Vocals-That-Black-Metal-Uses"? We'll make it EMCIBOHOWYWNCWBMTALATSVTBMU in short. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.217.153.165 (talk) 18:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I must agree, I think that Dimmu have "gone beyond BM." Listening to En Sorte I must say that it just doesn't *feel* like black metal. Maybe it is the opera vocals. Maybe its the commerical success. Don't know. All I know is that the Black, Evil atmosphere clearly isn't there on their new albums. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.162.37.23 (talk) 00:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

“

Maybe it’s because of our background in black metal. That was an extreme genre. But we don’t call ourselves black metal anymore. We certainly come from a black metal background, and there’s a controversy around that. There are a lot of people who define black metal in a very specific way, and if you don’t do it a certain way you’re a sellout. That’s why some kids send us hate mail. People who have been listening to metal for only a couple of years are questioning our integrity.

”

- Interview with ICS Vortex.

The present Dimmu is not black metal by their own words.

Their own words don't change a thing - Gallhammer, for example, claim, sometimes zealously, that they're not black metal and they are crust punk - but many reliable sources say otherwise. The band can claim what they like - that doesn't define the genre itself. ≈ The Haunted Angel 18:47, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Isnt it up to the band what genre they belong to? They should know if anybody when their the ones who made it? If not, then who is in a position to label the bands music? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.210.119.102 (talk) 18:51, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

No. Didn't you read this discussion? The band's opinion counts for NOTHING. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 18:57, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

By your logic, I could create a speed metal band and call it funeral doom - just because I call it that, however, it doens't mean everyone else does. ≈ The Haunted Angel 18:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

But you are the creator of it, why should everyone else decide over what you made? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.210.119.102 (talk) 19:07, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, being the creator does not always make your word final on it; see the example I just gave ≈ The Haunted Angel 19:15, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

As an encyclopedia, we have strict guidelines on what information can be included, spelled out in WP:OR and WP:RS. Take a good look at those. It's pretty clear that your edits are original research from an unreliable resource. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 19:21, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Prague Philharmonic Orchestra?

Sections of the album were recorded with the Prague Philharmonic Orchestra to enhance the classical arrangements which have always augmented the band's style.

Apparently there's no article about any "Prague Philharmonic Orchestra"; there is, however, an article about Prague Philharmonia - could this be the same one? I find it implausible that the philharmonic orchestra of a big city like Prague would lack an article on the English Wikipedia. --x-Flare-x^{Talk) 21:36, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Dimmu Borgir Logo.png

Image:Dimmu Borgir Logo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 02:15, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. ≈ Maurauth ^{(nemesis~☆)} 14:26, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Critical reviews

Leave the ANUS reviews link as it is; the article needs an independant link for critical analysis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.152.117.26 (talk • contribs)

Links to websites like that are considered spam by wikipedia standards.Karpsm ö m 03:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Websites "like that"? What does that mean? 81.153.54.245 13:59, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

yea i see someone changed it to what you'll find in a dictionary, and honestly i dont think its going to help anyone with that, having "DEE-MOO BOR-GEAR" is much more helpful—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.60.106.216 (talk)

That does not matter, the way it is now is the appropriate way it should be written on Wikipedia to meet proper guidelines Karpsm ö m 04:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I've added a link to IPA chart for English so that people can look it up. Pronunciations should be written in IPA to avoid ambiguity, as they cannot in most cases be written unambiguously using only the latin alphabet. However in this case the nonstandard "dim-moo-bore-gear" really isn't ambiguous, so I'm for leaving that in as well. - Zeibura ^(Talk) 15:20, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Also regarding the request for an icelandic audio pronunciation, the pronunciation in icelandic (which is different from the recieved english pronunciation of the band's name) is given at dimmuborgir, which should help. - Zeibura ^(Talk) 15:22, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I personally find Dim-You-Bor-Gear a better pronunciation. ive heard the band themselves refer the band as that name. -Malacath —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.166.19.33 (talk) 16:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing Bio

I was pretty confused reading this bio, but I don't know anything at all about the band so I can't really fix it. The two main things that confused me are: (1) Foreshadowing lineup change before Stormblast, where the way the lineup changed isn't mentioned. (2) Member Stian Armstad said to be leaving the band when he was not mentioned anywhere earlier as a member.66.45.155.192 07:41, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

This article currently says that Death Cult Armageddon was recorded with Prague Philharmonic Orchestra, while Death Cult Armageddon currently says that it was recorded with London Philharmonic Orchestra.

So, which is it? --83.131.82.26 (talk) 18:40, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

its the Prague Philharmonic Orchestra, iv sorted it. Balthazar (talk) 17:12, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] key to the city?

i remember reading some metal magazine, and it had some thing about Dimmu Receiving the key to a city..seems pretty significant, but its not mentioned here...anyone know anything bout this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.250.198.220 (talk) 22:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know anything about it - but if there's a reliable source provided, it can be added. ≈ The Haunted Angel Review Me! 22:22, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rikets Røst

Can anyone prove the existence of the Rehearsal track "Rikets Røst". All references to the tape iv found lack that track. Balthazar (talk) ^{13:49, 6 January 2008 (UTC)}

I have the tape, and Rikets Røst is not on it. Glittertind did not have a previous song, it is only on the first album. Undeath (talk) 23:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bootlegs

iv commented out the bootlegs section, i didnt want to delete it but it being there served no purpose except to encourage people to add more of them. Balthazar ^(T|C) 12:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Bootlegs are notable if there are reliable references stating they are important. Say, a bootleg of a concert where the singer is assassinated in front of the public, with the press using it as a proof. Bootlegs alone are not notable for being even named here. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 15:43, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Genre... again!

Alright, I'm not here to say "DIMMU ARE NOT BLACK METAL NOOBS!" or any shit, I instead want to establish a manual of style for the Dimmu pages. What genre should we have on the main article page (personally, I think "melodic black metal" and "symphonic black metal" will do, as the reason people don't like Dimmu being called black metal is because they're more melodic - hence, melodic black metal) - and what genre should we label their albums (as somewhere along the lines, the genre is going to change). ≈ The Haunted Angel 00:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Sounds decent; I'd say melodic black metal for their early stuff (up through S.B.D.) and symphonic black metal for later. Of course, we'll need sources to back them up, as genre is always debatable. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 01:21, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The sources should be easy enough, but were they not symphonic earlier on as well? I think changing it from melodic isn't quite right, however - as I'd say they've become more melodic over time - not all symphonic black metal includes the melodic elements however, such as early Emperor. ≈ The Haunted Angel 01:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Haunted Angel, Dimmu Borgir IS black metal. They started out as black metal with For All Tid. They progressed to melodic black metal in Stormblast, and then fully to Symphonic Black Metal with their recent work. Undeath (talk) 05:31, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Oops. Sorry haunted. I didn't see that you said "I'm NOT her to say...". Undeath (talk) 05:49, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

The earliest album I own by them is Enthrone Darkness Triumphant - so I can't say I know what they were like before that - but surely they included the symphonic elements in their earlier stuff as well? I honestly don't know myself, so I'm waiting for someone to tell me when they actually started being "symphonic black metal", because they are certainly it on EDT, and as they've had a keyboardist on For All Tid onwards, I can only presume they were there as well. ≈ The Haunted Angel 23:17, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I have their early works, and I can say that there were little or no symphonic elements in For all tid or Stormblåst; regardless, any genres claims should be backed up by reliable sources. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 23:32, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

The sources themselves should be easy enough to obtain, I just wanted to help clear up the genres. Cheers! ≈ The Haunted Angel 23:49, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Dimmu borgir has strictly played symphonic black metal, period. Now, as they've progressed they've become like Emperor in that they no longer even play symphonic black metal anymore. It's become just extreme symphonic black metal (which this page used to say). I think both Emperor and Dimmu Borgir suck now, but that's my POV. I don't have too much of a problem with symphonic black metal, although I think almost no band can play it good. The only really good sbm band I know was early Emperor. Then they changed. Became just straight extreme symphonic metal...like Borgir has now. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 22:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

They are still symphonic black metal. Not even comparable to emperor. Emperor is extreme black metal, hardly symphonic at all nowadays. I've got the first rehearsal tape from DB and all records in between. Tracks like The Serpentine Offering and Forshadowing Furnace keep the band at symphonic black metal. They have yet to release a record that dubs them as extreme symphonic black metal.Oh, and to 5thEye, Glittertind, from For All Tid and Rehearsal, is a symphonic track. Undeath (talk) 06:20, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, DB is still symphonic metal pretty much. But Emperor is not extreme black metal. They were symphonic black metal but now they are hardly even black metal. They are pretty much just extreme metal. On the border of black and death and just bad. I never called them extreme symphonic black metal (that's just retarded). Oops. I actually did. I MEANT "extreme symphonic metal," period. They used to play symphonic bm but now they're stuff is just extreme symphonic metal. Similar to Emperor. They no longer have the relations to black metal they used to. It's more akin to extreme metal. Somewhere in between black and death, but neither. The Emperor article used to talk about that and so did this article. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 02:07, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

One song being different does not make a band a certain genre, but I haven't listened to this band in forever, so I'm no one to give an opinion anymore (as if user opinions matter). = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 02:17, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe the entire For All Tid album is symphonic. Glittertind was an example. If you havn't listened to it, go listen to it online. It's a great album and it's a good example of symphonic black metal. Undeath (talk) 02:57, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

No no, I have (and have listened to) their whole discography… I just don't recall their being anything remotely symphonic (besides piano) in their first few releases. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 03:01, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

This seems to be the most frequently used genre discussion section, so I'll post the suggestion for a genre here too: "Extreme-Metal-Call-It-Black-Or-Heavy-Or-Whatever-You-Want-Nobody-Cares-With-Black-Metalish-Themes-And-Lyrics-And-The-Shrieked-Vocals-That-Black-Metal-Uses". In short it'll be EMCIBOHOWYWNCWBMTALATSVTBMU. Who's with me? :3

Personally, I'd call For All Tid black metal, pure and simple. No "melodic black metal", and less symphonic elements then Emperor uses, in all honesty. ≈ The Haunted Angel 19:22, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Borgir" is really plural

I changed the introduction from saying Dimmu Borgir" means "Dark Castle" or "Dark Fortress" in Icelandic and Old Norse to "Dimmu Borgir" means "Dark Castles" or "Dark Fortresses" in Icelandic and Old Norse because "borgir" is plural (the singular would be "borg"). This has been discussed before, as well as the fact that in modern Icelandic, "borgir" is rather used with the meaning "cities"; I don't think the introduction needs to mention the latter, but certainly plural is plural - look in any Icelandic dictionary. It was changed back to singular by Undead warrior with "media reported as singular" as reason - well, firstly: what media? and most importantly: it doesn't matter what some media may say, it's just really, really plural. A very simple language issue. Gestumblindi (talk) 12:25, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

The band themselves, in interviews, state that it means Dark Castle, singular. I don't really care one way or another, but, from what I've seen over the interviews, (youtube, band's official site, etc...) they say it in a singular sense. Undeath (talk) 23:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, firstly, can you provide a link to such an interview? And then it would be interesting to know whether the interview was conducted in English or merely (badly?) translated from Norwegian. Second, "borgir" still simply is plural according to the rules of Icelandic/Old Norse where they have taken the name from. To say that "borgir" means "castle" is like saying that "castles" means "castle". If the band really for some strange reason insists on declaring it to be singular for them, this discrepancy between real and "invented" grammar should be noted. In current Icelandic, it anyway means primarily "cities", and I notice that an Icelander changed the translation in the article accordingly, which is something I wouldn't have done, as the band seems to prefer the older meaning "castle(s)". Gestumblindi (talk) 02:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth, I'm afraid. Even if you and I and millions of other people know it's wrong, if it is written on a website accepted as a reliable source, it's what we must report. Expert knowledge is utterly irrelevant. That's our wonderful Wikipedia policy. Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

While what you said is generally (partially) correct, I'd have to disagree in this case—we're talking about an established language, over which there is no ambiguity; if the official meaning of the word is plural, and can be verified by someone who speaks the language, it should be included by all means. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 01:57, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

An addendum: It would probably be best to state that the official meaning is plural and that the band has stated that its intention is singular. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 02:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I haven't seen any such restriction in the guidelines. This suggests the conclusion that everything must be sourced using a RS, every fart, lest it swiftly be deleted. And some interpret it that way. What's worse, if several websites, or even a single website (a RS) claims something, it has to be added in the article! Just because someone says so, whether it makes sense or not. I obviously do not agree with this extreme interpretation, but apparently it is possible. Strictly speaking, assertions justified with native competence are OR and need a {{fact}} tag slapped on. Florian Blaschke (talk) 02:22, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

This seems a little silly. If a reliable source is needed, then an Icelandic or Old Norse dictionary will suffice. I don't understand why this is even being discussed. I personally don't have a copy of such a dictionary but it should be easy to source. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 22:24, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Dictionaries are quite reliable sources. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 22:27, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, certainly more than media interviews at any rate ;-). Cites are mostly useful in disputed cases like this. Obviously there will be some sources more reliable than others... otherwise you'd never be able to talk about things like scientific consensus because some whackjob on the Internet disagrees with it. Similarly, the established language of a nation trumps a media and/or band mistranslation. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 22:31, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. If it's needed, here's a source in my possession: Langenscheidt Universal-Wörterbuch Isländisch, 7th edition, Berlin 2003. ISBN 3-468-18171-X. (An Icelandic-German-Icelandic dictionary). It shows "borg" as singular, plural "borgir"; mentions only the modern meaning (borg = city), however; if a source for the older meaning of "borg", "fortress" or "castle", is needed, it would have to be an Old Norse dictionary, I think. (Icelandic is the modern version of Old Norse, the grammar is the same). Gestumblindi (talk) 21:51, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

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