Talk:Belisarius

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

Military history WikiProject     (Rated Start-Class) This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions. Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. Additional information and associated task forces: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met Associated task forces (periods and conflicts): Medieval warfare task force (c. 500–c. 1500) WikiProject Biography     (Rated B-Class) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page. Biography Portal B This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ] This article is supported by the Politics and government work group. WikiProject Greece      (Rated B-Class) Greece Portal This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Greece, an attempt to expand, improve and standardize the content and structure of articles related to Greece. If you would like to participate, you can improve Belisarius, or sign up and contribute in a wider array of articles like those on our to do list. If you have any questions, please consult the FAQ. B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale. (comments) Low This article has been rated as a Low priority article Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met WikiProject Middle Ages (Rated B-Class) Middle Ages Portal Belisarius is part of WikiProject Middle Ages, a project for the community of Wikipedians who are interested in the Middle Ages. For more information, see the project page and the newest articles. B This article has been rated as B-class on the quality scale. Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale. Article Grading: The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need. WikiProject Middle Ages To do:

Please help improve this article or section by expanding it. Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion. (January 2007)

Contents 1 White tsar 2 Strategy 3 ¨¨origin of Belisarius::: 4 "one of the greatest generals in history" 5 Latin explanation? 6 Belisarius' birth date 7 question about mosaic 8 cut text from article section notes

[edit] White tsar

"beli tsar" mean white emperor. --Anonymous User:217.73.22.12

This relates to this edit by Kuralyov... tacked onto

this anonymous edit that wasn't really right. This stuff probably needs checking whether it's more than hypothetical. --Joy [shallot] 02:57, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I find it doubious, as the tsar was first used in the 10th century. I think it is just a coincidence. Is there a single academic reference to support the 'white tsar' name theory? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 11:48, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

While I am ignorant where it comes to byzantine history and language, I would think it equally likely that his name comes from belli (war) and caesar (lord) = warlord. It may just be a nickname that he got later in life. Then again I'm just whistling in the dark--Ignignot 19:15, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Re Tzar used only in 10th century... Actually, TZAR is slavicized for Caesar, which, after Julius Gaius Caesar was used by all Roman emperors as a title. True, Russians did not have actual Tzars until centuries later, but the Slavs probably referred to Roman and Bysantine leaders as Caesars (Tzars), just as we refer to German kings "kaisers" (which, by the way, is also Germanized Caesar) or Ottoman kings "sultans". So it is possible that Belisarius actually means White Prince in a Slavic language at the time.

I cant remember exactly where i read it, i think in the Oxford History of Byzantium, but they quite clearly dismiss the origins of the name Belisarius as being in any way related to a slavic rendition of "White Tsar" as the latter word was not in use at the time - as highlighted in previous comments. An Siarach

Not good enough. The "sar-" root, meaning (roughly) "ruler", has been lurking around the eastern Mediterranean for at least 3,000 years. It is apparently even the etymological source of the "Caesar" family name, many generations before Julius (or Augustus) came along. Of course Belisarius' name wasn't constructed from a form of the word that didn't exist at the time! But it's much too glib to throw out the "sar-" with the bathwater.

Having said that: Is there ANYONE who can vouch for anything more about the etymology here? For instance, was "beli" actually in use as a word for "white" in Thrace or nearby regions at the time? Jmacwiki (talk) 01:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Strategy

Given that Belisarius was largely known for his strategic prowess, couldn't there be a little something about it, like perhaps going more indepth into one of his Persian campaigns? --maru 04:06, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Find a source. Link it here so others can do it. Adapt it yourself if others won't. I would also like to see this article expanded, but...it's wiki. If you want something done, you can do it yourself :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 09:26, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But... I'm lazy. And I do so much work on other articles, is it so much to ask that someone else do it for once? :( --maru (talk) contribs 02:08, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ¨¨origin of Belisarius:::

I believe that the elements converge in the opinion that Belisarius was a romanized Greek.Belisarius was born in 500 A.D. in the Byzantine province of Dardania. As we know from the Greek-speaking chronographer - historician of this period Prokopios, the mother of Belisarius was Christian and the father a romanised noble who died when the eminent general was very young.Belisarius took his basic education in Adrianoupolis under the protection of his uncle. He had courses in Greek, his maternal language.As we know from Prokopios great impression to the general made Xenophon's "kathodos ton myrion" , as well as the classic masterpieces "Ilias" and "Odyssey".He was also very inderested in logistics.With the acquaintances of his uncle could join the guard of Justinian, who distinguished him between the others .

The Balkan peninsula was southernly (under the Danube) lived from Greek origin Roman citizens. This conclusion we can gather easily from the make that they were given Greek names in all these regions from prehistoric ages. Also the period that was given birth to Belisarius ,the Slavs were located above the Danube , they were pagans and they did not have any contact with the empire only afterwards the 6th century. It is not possible therefore Belisarius was Slav of origin,even if himself ignored his real national identity. However he was what he represented : A glorius Roman general of an empire that remained acquaintance in the history as Byzantium.

I encourage you, whoever you are that wrote this, to add some of this to the article itself. Jmacwiki (talk) 01:51, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "one of the greatest generals in history"

Isn't that a bit biased and over the top, especially for the first sentence? There is no absolute consensus of the greatest generals of all time, and stating that Belisarius was one as absolute fact seems like too much. Perhaps "is often considered one of the greatest generals in history" or something of the sort. DaBears34 22:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure. Maybe it is true there is no consensus about a "list of the greatest generals". However, Belisarius is indeed one of the best, if you considered what he achieved with the resources he had. Moreover, he is included in the List of military commanders, which of course can include only a selected subset of all those who commanded military operations.--BlaiseMuhaddib 13:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I say it's a clear Peacock term and should be changed. --NEMT 02:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree with you. Under what term he was not "great"?--BlaiseMuhaddib 22:30, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Surely, but "prolific" is just silly. -- Gwern (contribs) 02:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

If you take its reproductive connotation, perhaps, but it can also be used to imply great influence and success. --NEMT 02:50, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a bit biased. Isn't it better to just let the reader go through the article and let him say "hey, this guy must be one of the greatest generals of all times!"

Suggestion (a general rule when peacock terms are in play, if you still want to assert an opinion): Give a published, 3rd-party source. In this case, better than a testimonial from some authority figure would be a citation from the curriculum of a military school that teaches about the strategies and successes of "great generals", including Belisarius. Jmacwiki (talk) 01:58, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Latin explanation?

What does the current text in successionbox means: Succeeded by: Post consulatum Belisarii (East), Iterum post consulatum Paulini (West)? Without ilinks it doesn't make much sense.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  03:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

It is the standard way to tell that there were no consuls for that year, so it was the "(first year) after the consulate of Belisarius (in the East), the second (year) after the consulate of Paulini (in the West). Since it is standard, it stays that way. (You claim to be a proconsul, you should know well.)--BlaiseMuhaddib 22:29, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Belisarius' birth date

I have found in other internet sources (like the spanish page http://www.artehistoria.com/frames.htm?http://www.artehistoria.com/historia/personajes/4780.htm) that Belisarius was born at year 500, not 505. In Robert Graves' book "Count Belisarius" it also mentions the year 500 as Belisarius' date of birth.

Encyclopedia Britannica says c.505. I'll take their word over that of random Internet sites and novels any day. --Gwern (contribs) 16:59, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The Oxford Classical Dictionary (2003) says c. 500 - not that it really matters either way, circa conveys an unknown exact date, 5 years is within the realm of error either way. -- Stbalbach 12:35, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] question about mosaic

Is Belisarius to my right or Justinian's? 04:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

— Justinian's, the bearded one.XVA 05:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] cut text from article section notes

I have cut the following text:

Robert Graves biographical novel includes the assertion that Belisarius was able to demonstrate his knowledge of the practices of the East by asserting that the Saracens would be starting their Ramadan fast - this despite the fact that Belisarius died some 5 years before the birth of the prophet Mohamed!

My reasoning is that the fast in the month of Ramadan existed prior to Mohammed. In any case, the text belongs elsewhere, whether it stands or not on its own merit. --5telios 11:51, 2 October 2007 (UTC)