Talk:Battle of Hattin

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Kurdistan Portal This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Kurdistan, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Kurdistan-related topics. Please visit the project page if you would like to participate. Happy editing!
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

	This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
Additional information and associated task forces: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met Associated task forces (nations and regions): French military history task force Middle Eastern military history task force Associated task forces (periods and conflicts): Medieval warfare task force (c. 500–c. 1500) Crusades task force

	Middle Ages Portal Battle of Hattin is part of WikiProject Middle Ages, a project for the community of Wikipedians who are interested in the Middle Ages. For more information, see the project page and the newest articles.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
Article Grading: The article has not been rated for quality and/or importance yet. Please rate the article and then leave comments here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.
	Crusades task force
WikiProject Middle Ages To do:

WikiProject Echo has identified Battle of Hattin as a foreign language featured article. You may be able to improve this article with information from the Arabic or Hebrew language Wikipedias.

Contents 1 The capture of Saladin's siter 2 Numbers 3 Translation 4 Discrepancy between this and Third Crusade 5 image 6 Since when did the Kingdom crap soldiers? 7 7th July

[edit] The capture of Saladin's siter

Can anyone cite this? If not, I plan to delete it.

It is in Ernoul, but Muslim sources don't mention her. Adam Bishop 20:39, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Numbers

I've changes the numbers, based on avid Nicolle's estimates, both in his "[Osprey Campaign#19] Hattin 1187" (ps.58-61), and "[Osprey Men-At-War #171] Saladin and the Saracens" (p.20).

If someone has closer estimates, please put them in, and tell me where they are from, our of curiousity.

Thanks.

MYLO 21:17, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

its very hard to eistimate the both side numbres but we can try to select the most closed numbre for salah al din-saladin-as arbic reference he had 12000 knight and in this age moslems dont use foot soldiers all the army are knight but some time in big battle the collect foot soldiers form cities and some timesu the numbre of those are equal the knight numbres i think the are not more than 10,000 men so the total army 22000 or less and i am sure the crusaders are less than salah al din army i am sorry for my english

---

The armies of Saladin always had infantrymen, specially archers althought had too other troops as you see in the Battle of Arsuf; in the same battle of Hattin, if i remember well, the muslim infantry attacked the souther side of the christian army, cutting the way to the Lake, while the cavalry attack the rear and vanguard of the christians while these was advancing to Hattin.

-Fco

---

[edit] Translation

If you would like I could translate the arabic version and paste it here.

Sure, it would be interesting to see what it says. Adam Bishop 02:56, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discrepancy between this and Third Crusade

In the account of Raynald and Guy's capture, it is written in this article:

"The exhausted captives were brought to Saladin's tent, where Guy was given a goblet of iced water as a sign of Saladin's generosity. When Guy offered the goblet to his fellow captive Raynald, Saladin allowed the old man (Raynald was about 60) to drink it but shortly afterwards said that he had not offered water to Raynald and thus was not bound by the Muslim rules of hospitality. When Saladin accused Raynald of being an oath-breaker, Raynald replied that "kings have always acted thus". Saladin then executed Raynald himself, beheading him with his sword."

but in the short paragraph it is stated:

"King Guy and Raynald were brought to Saladin's tent, where Guy was offered a goblet of water. Guy took a drink but was forbidden to pass the goblet to Raynald, because the Muslim rule of hospitality states that one who receives food or drink is under the protection of the host. Saladin would not be forced to protect the treacherous Raynald by allowing him to drink. Raynald, who had not had a drop of water in days, grabbed the goblet out of Guy's hands. Upon seeing Raynald's disrespect for Arab custom, Saladin beheaded Raynald for past betrayals. Saladin honored tradition with King Guy; Guy was sent to Damascus and eventually ransomed to his people, one of the few captive crusaders to avoid execution."

So which is it? Did Raynald snatch the Goblet or did Guy give it to him?

Depends which source you read...Adam Bishop 04:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] image

the image we have here, tagged with "The Battle of Hattin, from a medieval manuscript": what is our evidence that this depicts, in fact, the battle of Hattin? I grant you it is perfectly possible, but how are we to know if we don't even know which manuscript this is from? Until we pinpoint the source, the image is just so many colourful pixels. dab (𒁳) 18:04, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this one, and some of our other crusade images, are from the Grandes Chroniques de France. This one looks like an imaginative reconstruction of Hattin, with the two horns, Tiberias in the background, and the well replacing the lake as a source of water...but yeah I guess it could be anything. Adam Bishop 18:24, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually it looks similar to Image:BalianofIbelin1490.JPG, which is from Les Passages faits Outremer par les Français contre les Turcs et autres Sarrasins et Maures outremarins, according to the image page. Adam Bishop 08:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Since when did the Kingdom crap soldiers?

I have never had the pleasure and pain of seeing something so utterly ludicrous. The Crusdaers numbering 60,000, including 40,000 mercenaries?!! Even Salahdin had a tough time raising 40,000 men or more, AND HE HAD SYRIA AND EGYPT COMBINED!!!! Use references, like I have for my numbers. Tourskin (talk) 01:53, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

That was added on January 19. Tefalstar reverted only one of the anon's three edits; I wonder if he meant to revert all three. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The numbers I found were a lot lower as well, I added in what I had, but I left the other as well just with a request for a citation.Walbe13 (talk) 16:14, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 7th July

Both a history channel series "History Makers" and Harvey's book "The Plantagenets" give the date of the battle as 7/7. Should we mention this, it certainly has importance in England, considering the date of the London bombings by Islamic extremists? --Tefalstar (talk) 16:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)