Talk:Batak massacre
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[edit] Comments
[edit] Factual problems
I've got the following problems.
1. The article defines "The Batak massacre" as "massacres of Christian civilians throughout Bulgaria". Being Bulgarian myself, I've never heard the term being used to refer to anything else than the massacre that occurred in Batak itself. The other massacres that occurred after the April uprising are not usually called that way. Maybe James Reid, whom the article cites, does use the word in this way, but if so, this is higly untypical. I can't check that, because it's not available for free online.
2. The article says the death toll was 5000, but all Bulgarian sources I've seen (Кратка българска енциклопедия, Историческа енциклопедия България, Електронна енциклопедия България (online)) say 3000.
3. I think the second paragraph of the section "The Massacre" is the result of a misunderstanding on the part of the Armenian editor who wrote it (who, BTW, has been banned for abusive behaviour). It appears to describe events that follow the ones described in the first paragraph, something like "a second round" of massacres, but in fact it is just another retelling of the story of the April uprising as a whole; the editor apparently didn't understand it was the same thing. The different numbers of casualties cited (5000, 2100) are probably due to different estimates about the same massacre, not to different massacres.
4. As for the 300 Turkish civilians massacred, I don't understand if they are supposed to have perished at Batak alone, or whether this a total estimate for Bulgaria as a whole.
The worst thing is that while I strongly suspect this article is inaccurate in more than one respect, I don't have access to the cited works, so I can't understand what they actually said, and what is mistakes on the part of the editor. I see no way to help this article out except for basically rewriting it from scrath using (Bulgarian) sources that I do have access to, making uncontroversial claims. But that would mean that I am deleting sourced info, which is wrong, too. --Anonymous44 13:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
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- See also german discussion in de:Massaker von Batak -- jlorenz1 21:28, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
- The Turkish massacres is there for neutrality the start of these massacres; anyway the information is sourced. --Vonones 22:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I removed the "Disputed" tag, since the article seriously evolved since its had been put. There are no more statements to be referenced, I put a reference for the number of victims to Britannica, etc. --PetaRZ (talk) 18:35, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
- My reasons for the tag were not the lack of references, see above. As far as I can see, only one problem has been addressed, namely the definition of the Batak massacre has been changed to "part of" all the massacres after the uprising. Also, Britannica 1911 is not precisely an up-to-date secondary source.--Anonymous44 (talk) 14:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
- If I understand you well, the problem comes from the introduction, so I'll try to change it. Also, the following paragraph is moved here, unless verifiable sources are presented:
- The Turkish government, meanwhile, began to implement another means of repression, by which people of other ethnicities were compulsorily transferred to Bulgaria in order to reduce the Bulgarians to a minority in their own country. The Turks even incited these immigrants to commit murder and plundering. When in 1876 the Bulgarians attempted to defend themselves against this plundering and murdering, the Turks instated a number of massacres in which 25,000 people lost their lives (in Batak alone 5,000 of the 7,000 population of the city were massacred)
- If I understand you well, the problem comes from the introduction, so I'll try to change it. Also, the following paragraph is moved here, unless verifiable sources are presented:
The Christian massacre of 300 Turkish villagers in Batak at the beginning of the 1876 April Uprising of Bulgarians against the rule of the Ottoman Turks produced violent reaction on the part of the local irregular Ottoman troops, who later killed 2,100 Bulgarian civilians.[1][2][3]
- Anonymous44, I made an attempt to take into account your remarks, and to introduce a NPOV in the article. If you put one more time the {{disputed}} tag, I'll not remove it, since I cannot make it more neutral. Another editor is needed to review my writings. --PetaRZ (talk) 23:42, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Listing at List of events named massacres
The Batak massacre is currently included in the above list. Unfortunately, the listing does not conform to the inclusion criteria of that list... which indicate that multiple reliable sources use the word "massacre" as part of a NAME for the event (in other words, multiple reliable sources must call the event the "Batak Massacre", or some close varient thereof). At the moment the single citation provided backs the idea that the event is discribed as being a massacre, but does not indicate that it is named as such.
If the inclusion criteria are not met, we will have to remove the event from the list... which we would prefer not to have to do. Since it is likely that those who edit this page will be familiar with the sources, I ask for your help. Please pop over to the list and provide sources for the name. Thanks. Blueboar (talk) 11:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
